Can Religion co-exist with the ideal utopian society?
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
12-02-2014, 08:48 PM
Can Religion co-exist with the ideal utopian society?
In society these days, you can do the most bizarre things and people will leave you alone because there's something taboo about questioning someones faith. There is some sort of false sense of letting people be entitled to their faith and exempting them from scrutiny just because they have a right to believe in whatever they want and can therefore act in the most inappropriate ways. This sort of leeway is just unacceptable, and I hope as society progresses, that one day we will eliminate religion.

I'm reading a book right now called Brave New World in my GR11 English class, and it's about a godless society in the future that's eliminated various things we find conventional today. Most things society believes, accepts, or does today is not done anymore now in this ''utopia society'' in the novel. Did you hear that? Religion is now gone!

That was just one thought-provoking ideology I've taken away from the book so far,that being: wouldn't we be better off with religion? It caused me to really inquire to see if it would work. So I ask you, a group of people that might share my views on this issue or maybe help me look into it more, wouldn't we?


I say an ideal utopia's various characteristics would have to include one being that there must be no religion at all in the society. Wouldn't life be more enjoyable and wouldn't people be more appreciative of how we're not just the result of a child playing with legos?

What about factors excluding mental liberation? What about stopping all of the fighting resulting from religion? Remember the crusades, because I sure as hell (no pun intended!), say that was a direct cause of religion and no political motives on the side. I implore you to consider the subsequent elimination of suicide bombers, of happier families that aren't separated because of religion, of people not ostracized because of their religious affiliation or sexual preference. I could go on...

Before we jump right into the conclusion, I'll play devils advocate. What good has religion done for society that would make it not in society's best interest to eliminate it? Can religion do anything people without religion can't? If you agree that we should keep religion in society and that it does not necessarily need to be eliminated in order to progress or make it better, please share why. Am I alone in feeling we should take out religion? Am I the only one who dreams of a godless society where we can truly focus on egalitarianism if anything?


To keep things concise, the question I pose to the audience --> If there was a button in front of you that when pressed, eliminated all religion, would you press it?

I would.

Everyday is judgement day. Use your judgement, use reason.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
12-02-2014, 08:51 PM
RE: Can Religion co-exist with the ideal utopian society?
Well if machines are powerful enough to create virtual universe for me to live in I can live there and not give a fuck about religion or anything else so yeah.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
12-02-2014, 08:52 PM
RE: Can Religion co-exist with the ideal utopian society?
Without hesitation I'd press the button, a no brainer for me.

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
12-02-2014, 09:56 PM
RE: Can Religion co-exist with the ideal utopian society?
At first I was going to answer the question in the thread title with

No Drinking Beverage

But now I'll switch to answering the question asked at the end of the OP...

Yes Drinking Beverage

Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
13-02-2014, 12:34 AM
RE: Can Religion co-exist with the ideal utopian society?
Well, even if life was otherwise the same without religion, at least we'd all sleep in on Sundays and save 10%....

I would press a button that suddenly gave everyone critical thinking skills and a skeptical and inquisitive perspective, but if all it did was wipe out religion and leave everyone as idiotic and easily manipulated as they are today, I don't really know that would be an improvement.

Softly, softly, catchee monkey.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
13-02-2014, 01:09 AM
RE: Can Religion co-exist with the ideal utopian society?
My first impulse is to press the button. Even upon considering it for some time, I would make the same decision. The positive influences would, but for the moment, grant the world a greater measure of peace and happiness that it does not now enjoy. I do not think that my decision to press the button would result in the permanent eradication of religion, since it has not eradicated the religious impulse within humanity.

In his book, "God is Not Great, How Religion Poisons Everything" Christopher Hitchens said the following.

Quote:Religious faith is, precisely because we are still-evolving creatures, ineradicable. It will never die out, or at least not until we get over our fear of death, and of the dark, and of the unknown, and of each other. For this reason, I would not prohibit it even if I thought I could. Very generous of me, you may say. But will the religious grant me the same indulgence?

I cannot help but notice the very valid fears which drive people towards a poor or even entirely fictional explanation of things unknown. Without means of accurate explanation of everything in the universe, there may very well always be some bumbling fearful human who would very much like to fill the gaps with a god. I do not think it a poor guess, to think that religion would return in force eventually.

I also do not feel entirely comfortable removing all religious influence from the world. There may very well be some small gems of wisdom hidden within superstitions. In his book "The End of Faith, Religion, Terror, and the Future of Reason" Sam Harris said the following.

Quote:Your brain is tuned to deliver the vision of the world that you are having at this moment. At the heart of most spiritual traditions lurks the entirely valid claim that it can be tuned differently.

He goes on to describe how through meditation, or through focusing in a certain manner, one may abolish the innate feeling of the self, or "I". Lacking this personal perspective, a human can experience peace and health in a new manner. Although much of this type of practice is tainted by religious nonsense, the core of meditation seems to hold some interesting and useful discoveries about how the mind works. I would be unenthusiastic to surrender what may turn out to be a major discovery concerning human happiness.

Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of a spiritless situation. The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness.

-Karl Marx
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
13-02-2014, 01:38 AM
RE: Can Religion co-exist with the ideal utopian society?
I would press the button to eradicate religion and walk away without looking back.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
13-02-2014, 02:18 AM
RE: Can Religion co-exist with the ideal utopian society?
The ideal utopian society can't exist.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Juv's post
13-02-2014, 02:39 AM
RE: Can Religion co-exist with the ideal utopian society?
(12-02-2014 08:48 PM)Freethought Wrote:  In society these days, you can do the most bizarre things and people will leave you alone because there's something taboo about questioning someones faith. There is some sort of false sense of letting people be entitled to their faith and exempting them from scrutiny just because they have a right to believe in whatever they want and can therefore act in the most inappropriate ways. This sort of leeway is just unacceptable, and I hope as society progresses, that one day we will eliminate religion.

I'm reading a book right now called Brave New World in my GR11 English class, and it's about a godless society in the future that's eliminated various things we find conventional today. Most things society believes, accepts, or does today is not done anymore now in this ''utopia society'' in the novel. Did you hear that? Religion is now gone!

That was just one thought-provoking ideology I've taken away from the book so far,that being: wouldn't we be better off with religion? It caused me to really inquire to see if it would work. So I ask you, a group of people that might share my views on this issue or maybe help me look into it more, wouldn't we?


I say an ideal utopia's various characteristics would have to include one being that there must be no religion at all in the society. Wouldn't life be more enjoyable and wouldn't people be more appreciative of how we're not just the result of a child playing with legos?

What about factors excluding mental liberation? What about stopping all of the fighting resulting from religion? Remember the crusades, because I sure as hell (no pun intended!), say that was a direct cause of religion and no political motives on the side. I implore you to consider the subsequent elimination of suicide bombers, of happier families that aren't separated because of religion, of people not ostracized because of their religious affiliation or sexual preference. I could go on...

Before we jump right into the conclusion, I'll play devils advocate. What good has religion done for society that would make it not in society's best interest to eliminate it? Can religion do anything people without religion can't? If you agree that we should keep religion in society and that it does not necessarily need to be eliminated in order to progress or make it better, please share why. Am I alone in feeling we should take out religion? Am I the only one who dreams of a godless society where we can truly focus on egalitarianism if anything?


To keep things concise, the question I pose to the audience --> If there was a button in front of you that when pressed, eliminated all religion, would you press it?

I would.

I doubt your godless, egalitarian society will ever exist..

But for that button, I dunno; what are the ramifications here? does the world go on as it was but after the button everyone just forgets the idea of god? Or is everything rewritten to remove religion?
I feel I need to know all the hypothetical results from the button before I'd even consider pressing it.

The people closely associated with the namesake of female canines are suffering from a nondescript form of lunacy.
"Anti-environmentalism is like standing in front of a forest and going 'quick kill them they're coming right for us!'" - Jake Farr-Wharton, The Imaginary Friend Show.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
13-02-2014, 02:43 AM (This post was last modified: 13-02-2014 03:06 AM by Luminon.)
RE: Can Religion co-exist with the ideal utopian society?
People obey religion because they are damaged. But they also do many other things, because they are damaged - such as worshiping a nation, a sports team, a leader. an ideology and so on. People in the novel Brave New World are also damaged.

What is this damage? It is conditioning, it is implanting a behavior code by violence - physical, but even worse, emotional and mental (moral) violence. Moral violence causes us to attack ourselves and others out of the desire to be moral. It is something that someone else made us believe that it is moral. It is one of the greatest evils in this world.

In religion and all other ideologies you are threatened by becoming immoral if you resist the ideology. The objective, logical reciprocal secular morality is counterfeited and replaced by a false morality posing as real. Objective morality is real and we all know it. No religion or ideology would be obligatory if it was openly presented as an opinion. Just as counterfeiter needs real money to counterfeit, ideologues need real morality to replace it with fake morality. This is how they destroy and control both good people and bad people.

Many atheists see this horrendous manipulation with Church, but they do not see it in the state, army, mass media, big corporation business, and their own family. All these are institutions that create morality thus counterfeit morality to control people. Institutions can exist honestly and morally, but then they must not be obligatory. Wrong things can survive only as compulsory, as monopolies that condition human beings internally.

Welcome to democracy, the true Brave New World. Huxley knew world several decades ago was so much like his novel - and today it is even more.




I have confronted Seth Andrews himself.
Quote:It's not a blind spot. I simply see the issue in 3 dimensions. The men and women of the armed forces don't deserve a blanket "Agents Of Murder" label, and as unpopular as it is for many to hear, the armed forces are a necessary and often positive force in this crazy world.

Do abuses exist? Yes. Are governments guilty of the misuse of military power? Yes. Will we always find the bad example? Of course. But as a whole, I see the men and women of the military to be honorable, moral people worthy of our respect.

Thank you.

Seth
Seth, war itself is the abuse! There is no such thing as a just war. American soldiers in Iraq do the same work that Gestapo officers or SS soldiers did in Germany and occupied lands, they storm houses, shoot people, beat them up, cripple them, torture, rape, imprison and store in large prisons and camps, such as Abu Ghraib or Guantanamo.
Seth said it himself, he's a communicator, not a great thinker or genius. Very few people can figure out this on their own, very few people can go against a lifetime conditioning. A few more can understand when they are shown. Church is like the government. Government is like the church. During the Crusades people "supported the troops". The Brave New World, 1984 and other dystopian novels are based on real social mechanisms.




Now, if it is possible to misuse real social mechanisms to create a real, terrible dystopia, is it possible to use the same real mechanisms to create eutopia, a good place, good people, good humanity?
The answer is of course YES. This is how science works, it solves problems and creates better conditions. It's just that institutions in dystopia have no interest to create eutopia. You are conditioned against eutopia, fearing it would be worse than dystopia you live in. You DO NOT TRUST YOUR REASON to recognize dystopia from eutopia, to recognize GOOD AND BAD, moral and immoral.

Seth and all atheists.
You trust your reason about God, but you do not trust it about government, elections, democracy, money, criminality, offices, police, army and so on. Can you truly be called a rational, non-religious being? You believe in one less god than everyone else, that's all.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: