Can Religion co-exist with the ideal utopian society?
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13-02-2014, 09:52 AM
RE: Can Religion co-exist with the ideal utopian society?
@OP: Atheists typically pride themselves on requiring evidence to believe something. Yet, they accept that religion is a net evil and science is a net good without evidence. No one has quantified that religious wars have killed more people than religious charity has saved. No one has quantified that technology has saved more people than it has killed. (A war, religious or otherwise, waged with fists doesn't do that much damage.) There's no way to accurately quantify these things across history and cultures.

The honest answer to the question "Would we be better off without religion (or science for that matter)" is, "I don't know."
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13-02-2014, 10:30 AM
RE: Can Religion co-exist with the ideal utopian society?
(13-02-2014 09:52 AM)alpha male Wrote:  @OP: Atheists typically pride themselves on requiring evidence to believe something. Yet, they accept that religion is a net evil and science is a net good without evidence.

Since 'good' and 'evil' are subjective terms, no evidence is required to declare something good or evil.

Quote:The honest answer to the question "Would we be better off without religion (or science for that matter)" is, "I don't know."

There are societies with extremely low levels of religion, and they are nice places to live - Sweden, for example. The places with extreme levels of religion, well, you decide if you'd want to live in those places. I wouldn't.

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13-02-2014, 10:51 AM
RE: Can Religion co-exist with the ideal utopian society?
(13-02-2014 02:39 AM)Free Thought Wrote:  
(12-02-2014 08:48 PM)Freethought Wrote:  In society these days, you can do the most bizarre things and people will leave you alone because there's something taboo about questioning someones faith. There is some sort of false sense of letting people be entitled to their faith and exempting them from scrutiny just because they have a right to believe in whatever they want and can therefore act in the most inappropriate ways. This sort of leeway is just unacceptable, and I hope as society progresses, that one day we will eliminate religion.

I'm reading a book right now called Brave New World in my GR11 English class, and it's about a godless society in the future that's eliminated various things we find conventional today. Most things society believes, accepts, or does today is not done anymore now in this ''utopia society'' in the novel. Did you hear that? Religion is now gone!

That was just one thought-provoking ideology I've taken away from the book so far,that being: wouldn't we be better off with religion? It caused me to really inquire to see if it would work. So I ask you, a group of people that might share my views on this issue or maybe help me look into it more, wouldn't we?


I say an ideal utopia's various characteristics would have to include one being that there must be no religion at all in the society. Wouldn't life be more enjoyable and wouldn't people be more appreciative of how we're not just the result of a child playing with legos?

What about factors excluding mental liberation? What about stopping all of the fighting resulting from religion? Remember the crusades, because I sure as hell (no pun intended!), say that was a direct cause of religion and no political motives on the side. I implore you to consider the subsequent elimination of suicide bombers, of happier families that aren't separated because of religion, of people not ostracized because of their religious affiliation or sexual preference. I could go on...

Before we jump right into the conclusion, I'll play devils advocate. What good has religion done for society that would make it not in society's best interest to eliminate it? Can religion do anything people without religion can't? If you agree that we should keep religion in society and that it does not necessarily need to be eliminated in order to progress or make it better, please share why. Am I alone in feeling we should take out religion? Am I the only one who dreams of a godless society where we can truly focus on egalitarianism if anything?


To keep things concise, the question I pose to the audience --> If there was a button in front of you that when pressed, eliminated all religion, would you press it?

I would.

I doubt your godless, egalitarian society will ever exist..

But for that button, I dunno; what are the ramifications here? does the world go on as it was but after the button everyone just forgets the idea of god? Or is everything rewritten to remove religion?
I feel I need to know all the hypothetical results from the button before I'd even consider pressing it.
At least then the christian dark ages would be replaced as the age of enlightenment
http://commonsenseatheism.com/?p=1662

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13-02-2014, 10:56 AM
RE: Can Religion co-exist with the ideal utopian society?
If you get rid of religion, you get rid of a nice chunk of discrimination, billions stop being wasted on building places for the purpose of worshiping a fairy tale and tithing to said fairy tale, the idea that praying has some effect goes away (with any luck, it'll lead to more people taking action), people will stop being ignorant to the way the world works while at the same time insisting they do know how it works, indoctrination will stop, religious terrorism wouldn't be a thing anymore, people would stop wasting time in church, and I'm not an expert in current world affairs, but I'm pretty sure there's some conflicts going on right now that would benefit greatly from a lack of religion.

If you keep religion, none of that nice stuff happens, and you keep some charities. Not the idea of charities in general, not the willingness to help, just some specific ones continue to exist.

Tough choice.
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13-02-2014, 10:56 AM
RE: Can Religion co-exist with the ideal utopian society?
(13-02-2014 09:52 AM)alpha male Wrote:  @OP: Atheists typically pride themselves on requiring evidence to believe something. Yet, they accept that religion is a net evil and science is a net good without evidence. No one has quantified that religious wars have killed more people than religious charity has saved. No one has quantified that technology has saved more people than it has killed. (A war, religious or otherwise, waged with fists doesn't do that much damage.) There's no way to accurately quantify these things across history and cultures.

The honest answer to the question "Would we be better off without religion (or science for that matter)" is, "I don't know."

You realize that technology is anything that was an idea made to benefit people.
You are technology.
Your house is technology.
Your food is technology.
Medicine is technology.
Your pants are technology.
Eating is a technology.
Walking is a technology.
If science didn't exist, there wouldn't be religion and humans would have died off a long time ago.

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13-02-2014, 11:43 AM
RE: Can Religion co-exist with the ideal utopian society?
(13-02-2014 10:56 AM)Alex_Leonardo Wrote:  You realize that technology is anything that was an idea made to benefit people.
No, I don't realize that. Nuclear bombs and all the other weapons we've developed to kill each other are technology.
Quote:You are technology.
Consider
Quote:If science didn't exist, there wouldn't be religion and humans would have died off a long time ago.
ConsiderConsider
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13-02-2014, 11:47 AM
RE: Can Religion co-exist with the ideal utopian society?
I would be very hesitant to take any ideal of an ideal utopian society out of Brave New World. Any society that purposely retarded babies before birth should be condemned.
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13-02-2014, 12:08 PM
RE: Can Religion co-exist with the ideal utopian society?
To answer the thread title? Yes I think religion could exist in an utopian society. If you banned religion and someone wanted to have religion but were prohibited it wouldn't be utopian now would it?

To answer the question at the end of the OP, I think I'd probably hit the button yes but I'd have to understand first how said button works. Would the religious people be removed (I wouldn't like that), would knowledge and scientific advances by religious people be forgotten (I wouldn't like that either).
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13-02-2014, 12:09 PM
RE: Can Religion co-exist with the ideal utopian society?
(13-02-2014 10:30 AM)toadaly Wrote:  Since 'good' and 'evil' are subjective terms, no evidence is required to declare something good or evil.
Yes, so I followed up with an objective example - lives saved v. lives destroyed.
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13-02-2014, 12:18 PM (This post was last modified: 13-02-2014 12:36 PM by Freethought.)
RE: Can Religion co-exist with the ideal utopian society?
(13-02-2014 11:47 AM)natachan Wrote:  I would be very hesitant to take any ideal of an ideal utopian society out of Brave New World. Any society that purposely retarded babies before birth should be condemned.

You bring up a good point. I wanted to specify in my original post regarding taking the ideal out of what else is condoned in the so called utopia of Brave New World. I'm not saying what they are doing in the book isn't immoral. Whatever happens in the book, is not to be detrimental to the ideal I've taken out of it.

I meant to purpose that the eradication of religion in our present society would make everyone benefit as a whole. Just because Brave New World is a terrible place, that does not mean it is solely that way because of the absence of religion, therefore, more specifically, I mean to not associate a dystopia with the eradication of religion as in fact I argue it is the contrary, a utopia.

Everyday is judgement day. Use your judgement, use reason.
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