Can Society be too Liberal?
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15-03-2015, 06:37 AM
RE: Can Society be too Liberal?
(14-03-2015 09:36 PM)Blackout Wrote:  Do you know what modern liberalism means? Because the amount of criticism people here on TTA direct towards religion is highly incompatible with the trends of modern liberals.

I don't know why modern liberalism is more desirable than other political ideology and I don't know why society needs to organize itself according to liberalism. It is a bad assumption. Why is it preferable that society is organized according to modern liberalism specifically? Because modern liberalism has given me nothing but anger - Entering the EU without referendums, contracting massive debt, laws passed limiting free speech, an almost bankrupted social security system, completely open borders without a choice, overwhelming amounts of political correctness and long lists of things people can't say (namely insulting religion and insulting people), etc. I sympathize with principles of classical liberalism, I just can't stand modern liberalism, as much as I can't stand religious conservatism.

Wow. It's like I don't even have to write an entire paragraph to answer my own question. I am in the same boat as you on this issue, personally.

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15-03-2015, 08:16 AM
RE: Can Society be too Liberal?
(14-03-2015 10:24 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(14-03-2015 07:49 PM)Αθεία Αμβρόσιος Wrote:  I want to know your thoughts on liberal-oriented societies. Can you have a society that is too accepting?
It's not government's place to dictate how we are to behave. We don't have to all be the same, we don't have to conform to norms.

It is precisely the purpose of government to put limits on behavior. Drinking Beverage

Government has no other purpose.

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15-03-2015, 08:39 AM
RE: Can Society be too Liberal?
(15-03-2015 08:16 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(14-03-2015 10:24 PM)Stevil Wrote:  It's not government's place to dictate how we are to behave. We don't have to all be the same, we don't have to conform to norms.

It is precisely the purpose of government to put limits on behavior. Drinking Beverage

Government has no other purpose.

Indeed, as long as the behaviour is deemed illegal and unacceptable, such as murdering, raping, robbing, etc. But how do we decide where government intervention ends? Are you arguing for laissez faire?

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15-03-2015, 08:47 AM
RE: Can Society be too Liberal?
(15-03-2015 08:39 AM)Blackout Wrote:  
(15-03-2015 08:16 AM)Chas Wrote:  It is precisely the purpose of government to put limits on behavior. Drinking Beverage

Government has no other purpose.

Indeed, as long as the behaviour is deemed illegal and unacceptable, such as murdering, raping, robbing, etc. But how do we decide where government intervention ends? Are you arguing for laissez faire?

No, how did you get that? Consider

I would argue for reason, compassion, justice, and human rights.

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15-03-2015, 09:09 AM
RE: Can Society be too Liberal?
"To just put limit on behaviour" usually means that the government merely limits the essential and leaves the individual to decide his/her life without state intervention or regulation (because it is considered oppressive) - AKA laissez faire. What you are arguing with requires more than limiting behaviour - It requires active and purposeful intervention.

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15-03-2015, 09:16 AM
RE: Can Society be too Liberal?
(15-03-2015 09:09 AM)Blackout Wrote:  "To just put limit on behaviour" usually means that the government merely limits the essential and leaves the individual to decide his/her life without state intervention or regulation (because it is considered oppressive) - AKA laissez faire. What you are arguing with requires more than limiting behaviour - It requires active and purposeful intervention.

I think you are reading too little into 'limiting behavior'. Dodgy

My point is that we institute government to protect people. Those protections necessarily involve limiting behavior which not only includes the obvious like murder and robbery, but all damaging behaviors such as polluting, producing dangerous products, deceptive business practices, discrimination and so on.

My personal view is that personal freedom should be maximized, but not at others' expense.

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15-03-2015, 09:53 AM
RE: Can Society be too Liberal?
(15-03-2015 09:16 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(15-03-2015 09:09 AM)Blackout Wrote:  "To just put limit on behaviour" usually means that the government merely limits the essential and leaves the individual to decide his/her life without state intervention or regulation (because it is considered oppressive) - AKA laissez faire. What you are arguing with requires more than limiting behaviour - It requires active and purposeful intervention.

I think you are reading too little into 'limiting behavior'. Dodgy

My point is that we institute government to protect people. Those protections necessarily involve limiting behavior which not only includes the obvious like murder and robbery, but all damaging behaviors such as polluting, producing dangerous products, deceptive business practices, discrimination and so on.

My personal view is that personal freedom should be maximized, but not at others' expense.

You do realize that your idea is self-contradictory because limiting behaviour ultimately limits individual freedom, right? In your opinion, what constitutes harmful behaviour? Everytime you maximize someone's freedom you are limiting others.

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15-03-2015, 09:59 AM
RE: Can Society be too Liberal?
(15-03-2015 09:53 AM)Blackout Wrote:  
(15-03-2015 09:16 AM)Chas Wrote:  I think you are reading too little into 'limiting behavior'. Dodgy

My point is that we institute government to protect people. Those protections necessarily involve limiting behavior which not only includes the obvious like murder and robbery, but all damaging behaviors such as polluting, producing dangerous products, deceptive business practices, discrimination and so on.

My personal view is that personal freedom should be maximized, but not at others' expense.

You do realize that your idea is self-contradictory because limiting behaviour ultimately limits individual freedom, right? In your opinion, what constitutes harmful behaviour? Everytime you maximize someone's freedom you are limiting others.

It is not contradictory. Maximizing personal freedom in the context of a society means compromise, it does not imply unlimited freedom.

Your right to swing your fist stops at the tip of my nose.

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15-03-2015, 10:06 AM
RE: Can Society be too Liberal?
(15-03-2015 09:59 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(15-03-2015 09:53 AM)Blackout Wrote:  You do realize that your idea is self-contradictory because limiting behaviour ultimately limits individual freedom, right? In your opinion, what constitutes harmful behaviour? Everytime you maximize someone's freedom you are limiting others.

It is not contradictory. Maximizing personal freedom in the context of a society means compromise, it does not imply unlimited freedom.

Your right to swing your fist stops at the tip of my nose.

Then what you are proposing is not to maximize personal freedom but to find a middle ground between personal safety/security and individual freedoms.

How do you define what is harmful to others? And harmful to whom specifically?

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15-03-2015, 12:18 PM
RE: Can Society be too Liberal?
(14-03-2015 10:47 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(14-03-2015 10:24 PM)Stevil Wrote:  It's not government's place to dictate how we are to behave. We don't have to all be the same, we don't have to conform to norms.


It can be the government's place, depends on the government and the governed. Last time I checked most modern societies had laws against murder,
Murder is a threat to a functioning society so that is government's business.
However homosexuality, prostitution, polygamy, bare breasts, abortion are no threat so not government's business.
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