Can Souls in Heaven Intervene In Affaits On Earth?
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29-12-2016, 08:45 PM
RE: Can Souls in Heaven Intervene In Affaits On Earth?
Charlie, it all comes down to two questions.

What do you believe ?
Why do you believe it ?

I believe the earth is a basic sphere squished in and lumpy in certain parts of the world.
Why do I believe this ?

There is a great deal of evidence that points very strongly to the earth existing as a large lumpy spherical like ball in our solar system.
We can calculate the curvature from experiments. We can photograph it from space. We even have an international space station orbiting our planet.

There are no hard questions when it comes to religion unless you get into the history of how and why certain religions came to exist and flourish.

For an atheist, it's amusing and sometimes frightening the degree to which some people get so fundamentally wrapped up in a delusion.
Instead of talking about heaven or hell or souls or the morality of an immoral fictional character, you could talk about the reality of people who believe so strongly that they are willing to commit the most horrific atrocities in the name of their "good god".

The one that gets me so often is a story about a woman's daughter who was raped and killed. The woman didn't want the man who did these things to her own daughter to be brought to justice because she believed that his actions were the will of god. She accepted this horrific act and did not want to prevent any future acts of violence that this man would commit all because she believed she he was doing god's will. And everything that god does is "good".

When you can get someone to accept that murder and rape are good, that's when you know that religion poisons everything it touches.

If you have questions to ask, you might want to stick to the ones that revolve around reality, not fantasy.

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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29-12-2016, 09:06 PM
RE: Can Souls in Heaven Intervene In Affaits On Earth?
(29-12-2016 08:43 PM)Cheerful Charlie Wrote:  
(29-12-2016 08:23 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  Trollolololol

Anyway, to answer your question, the Bible says no.

Taking this to the next logical step, it seems that we will have no recollection of our earthly lives since any remembrance of humanity can be linked with some type of suffering.

Luke 16
19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

----

There have been many Christians over the ages that have cited this verse claiming those in heaven can observe those not in heaven. And of course there is RCC dogma concerning intercession of saints.

Parable

Just a story to teach a lesson.

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29-12-2016, 09:12 PM
RE: Can Souls in Heaven Intervene In Affaits On Earth?
(29-12-2016 08:45 PM)Rahn127 Wrote:  Charlie, it all comes down to two questions.

What do you believe ?
Why do you believe it ?

I believe the earth is a basic sphere squished in and lumpy in certain parts of the world.
Why do I believe this ?

There is a great deal of evidence that points very strongly to the earth existing as a large lumpy spherical like ball in our solar system.
We can calculate the curvature from experiments. We can photograph it from space. We even have an international space station orbiting our planet.

There are no hard questions when it comes to religion unless you get into the history of how and why certain religions came to exist and flourish.

For an atheist, it's amusing and sometimes frightening the degree to which some people get so fundamentally wrapped up in a delusion.
Instead of talking about heaven or hell or souls or the morality of an immoral fictional character, you could talk about the reality of people who believe so strongly that they are willing to commit the most horrific atrocities in the name of their "good god".

The one that gets me so often is a story about a woman's daughter who was raped and killed. The woman didn't want the man who did these things to her own daughter to be brought to justice because she believed that his actions were the will of god. She accepted this horrific act and did not want to prevent any future acts of violence that this man would commit all because she believed she he was doing god's will. And everything that god does is "good".

When you can get someone to accept that murder and rape are good, that's when you know that religion poisons everything it touches.

If you have questions to ask, you might want to stick to the ones that revolve around reality, not fantasy.

I don't believe the claims God exists and God is good and heaven exists are true. My little question was meant to explore the obvious problems with those little concepts. More evidence they can't be true, other than the usual village atheist "I don't believe".

What do the Xians think about heaven and do they ever think about that little puzzle? Do atheists think about the obvious problems here, in quite this pointed manner? Not that I can see.

Apparently, following such claims to their logical conclusions is not to the taste of many here. So if not, why not just ignore it? This question involves what we are assured is reality, by all too many Christians. Do such claims, obviously so questionable, deserve to get a free ride?

I posted this here, because I find it an interesting take on dogmas all too many Christians hold, not well examined. Apparently some people here are not exactly happy with this. But here we have a dozen or so posters who have chimed in, so it's not like its really that meaningful a few people can't seem to deal with it in the spirit of what the claims of some Christians tell us about the nature of the Universe they claim exists.

Yog Sothoth! Yog Sothoth! Come back old ones! Yog Sothoth!

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29-12-2016, 09:19 PM
RE: Can Souls in Heaven Intervene In Affaits On Earth?
(29-12-2016 09:06 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(29-12-2016 08:43 PM)Cheerful Charlie Wrote:  Luke 16
19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

----

There have been many Christians over the ages that have cited this verse claiming those in heaven can observe those not in heaven. And of course there is RCC dogma concerning intercession of saints.

Parable

Just a story to teach a lesson.

The hellfire preachers of the Great Awakening era, latched on to this and a few other stories to scare the bejeezus out of the great unwashed. To many, even today, it's not a parable. Even John Calvin entertained his followers with describing the delights of watching the suffering of the damned in hell.

http://www.tentmaker.org/Quotes/hell-fire.htm

Yog Sothoth! Yog Sothoth! Come back old ones! Yog Sothoth!

Cheerful Charlie
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29-12-2016, 09:26 PM
RE: Can Souls in Heaven Intervene In Affaits On Earth?
(29-12-2016 08:13 PM)Cheerful Charlie Wrote:  You seem to have a problem with this sort of thread. Exploring the claims of Christians as to the nature of God, heaven, and the Universe in general. What hard questions can be asked?

We've had many discussions here about Christian claims. The superficial crap you present isn't interesting.

(29-12-2016 08:36 PM)Cheerful Charlie Wrote:  This so far, has not been the most interesting atheist forum I have ever been on.
It's just a typical little forum with littler real depth. Not that it's not typical. I have been on the net for years and atheist sites have progressively gotten less intellectual or interesting.

You know where the door is.

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29-12-2016, 10:33 PM
RE: Can Souls in Heaven Intervene In Affaits On Earth?
(29-12-2016 09:19 PM)Cheerful Charlie Wrote:  
(29-12-2016 09:06 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  Parable

Just a story to teach a lesson.

The hellfire preachers of the Great Awakening era, latched on to this and a few other stories to scare the bejeezus out of the great unwashed. To many, even today, it's not a parable. Even John Calvin entertained his followers with describing the delights of watching the suffering of the damned in hell.

http://www.tentmaker.org/Quotes/hell-fire.htm

...and? How is this even relevant to your question?

They are objectively wrong. It's a parable. Nothing about it is supposed to be taken literally... it's a story that teaches a moral lesson.

Try again.
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29-12-2016, 10:50 PM
RE: Can Souls in Heaven Intervene In Affaits On Earth?
(29-12-2016 08:36 PM)Cheerful Charlie Wrote:  Only. If. You. Don't. Think. While. Reading. It.

It's actually rather atheist.

No, it's really not. There is nothing atheist about a thread title that asks if souls (which many atheists don't believe exist) in heaven (which nearly all atheists don't believe exists) can do anything. Even your entire OP does not come off as atheist, as you never ask "why do Christians believe...." or anything of that nature. You simply start asking inane religious-themed questions.

Banjo's criticism, regarding your thread title, is accurate. For you to pretend otherwise makes you oblivious at best and dishonest at worst.


Quote:This so far, has not been the most interesting atheist forum I have ever been on.
It's just a typical little forum with littler real depth. Not that it's not typical. I have been on the net for years and atheist sites have progressively gotten less intellectual or interesting.
Oh my how edgy! Hide the butter knives guys. Wait wait wait wait, you have been on the net for years? Whole ones?!? You must be an expert at the net then! Wow I bet you could even find porn! Rolleyes

Pro tip from one net expert to another: when people's first impression of you is that you are a cunt acting like a bigger cunt rarely if ever fixes the problem.

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29-12-2016, 10:51 PM
RE: Can Souls in Heaven Intervene In Affaits On Earth?
(29-12-2016 10:33 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(29-12-2016 09:19 PM)Cheerful Charlie Wrote:  The hellfire preachers of the Great Awakening era, latched on to this and a few other stories to scare the bejeezus out of the great unwashed. To many, even today, it's not a parable. Even John Calvin entertained his followers with describing the delights of watching the suffering of the damned in hell.

http://www.tentmaker.org/Quotes/hell-fire.htm

...and? How is this even relevant to your question?

They are objectively wrong. It's a parable. Nothing about it is supposed to be taken literally... it's a story that teaches a moral lesson.

Try again.

It's not. But it answers your post about parables. Historically, watching the torments of the damned has been a Christian delight as promised by many. To you and many a parable. Historically not quite so.

Peter Lombard, the Master of Sentences

“Therefore the elect shall go forth…to see the torments of the impious, seeing which they will not be grieved, but will be satiated with joy at the sight of the unutterable calamity of the impious .” Sent. Iv 50, ad fin

Martin Luther

When questioned whether the Blessed will not be saddened by seeing their nearest and dearest tortured answers, “Not in the least.”
Gerhard

“…the Blessed will see their friends and relations among the damned as often as they like but without the least of compassion.”

Andrew Welwood

(speaks of the saints as being) “overjoyed in beholding the vengeance of God ,” and their beholding of the smoke of the torment of the wicked as “a passing delectation.”

Yog Sothoth! Yog Sothoth! Come back old ones! Yog Sothoth!

Cheerful Charlie
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30-12-2016, 07:01 AM
RE: Can Souls in Heaven Intervene In Affaits On Earth?
(29-12-2016 08:16 AM)Cheerful Charlie Wrote:  What I was asking was meant to probe the idea of a heaven and a good God.

In any or all atheist mindset, there are NO gods and the notion of some sublime afterlife in a so-called heaven is truly absurd. You're wasting your time completely if you think there's anything to be gained by "probing" this notion.

Quote:It raises a lot of disturbing questions about this God creature and this heaven we are told is all true.

No, no it doesn't.

Quote:This was just one of those odd little thoughts that popped into my mind, so I decided to probe it a bit to see what other disproofs of God dropped out.

It's not the task of the atheist to prove that gods do not exist; it's the task of the proponents to prove that they do.

Quote:Would you as a possible good Christian be sad if in heaven, you were not capable of helping those needing help? Would that make heaven a bit of a hell for you? Why do so few Christians seem to have thought about this? Would you want to spend an eternity in such a heaven?

These sorts of rhetorical questions have been asked a thousand times here—and already adequately answered. At any rate, you should be addressing theists with these questions, not atheists who see it all as total bullshit anyway.

Quote:I think this is a good idea to ask those evangelical apologists about this. Maybe make them think a bit about what do they really think about the nature of heaven and God. It is a bit sad here to see that nobody seems to have much intellectual curiosity to explore this idea a bit more closely.

It's also a bit sad that you seem to be flogging a dead horse with this type of philosophical meandering on an atheist web site. You're asking for answers to hypothetical questions—but of the wrong people. Why don't you, as you've suggested, ask apologists on a Christian web site?

——I also resent the fact that you've accused we atheists of lacking "intellectual curiosity". Great way to make friends and influence people LOL.

I'm a creationist... I believe that man created God.
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30-12-2016, 07:36 AM
RE: Can Souls in Heaven Intervene In Affaits On Earth?
I've just had the displeasure of reading through your comments posted following the one which I've addressed. And what a load of sanctimonious, inflammatory, ill-advised, and confrontational rubbish they are!

(29-12-2016 04:46 PM)Cheerful Charlie Wrote:  Sorry to have pissed in your Wheaties... And perhaps you should read the OP, slowly, with mind engaged. Instead of this village atheist ranting, perhaps you could realize that this sort of empty ranting isn't really making atheism look attractive. I find all this mindless hostility here amusing in a sad sort of way... here, we seem to have a bubble of sorts in this forum. Strident and lacking in a sense of fun... My advice to you, calm down, and don't expect the world to spoon feed you this stuff so you won't get huffy and spew nonsense... Finding new reasons to doubt is not acceptable to you? Find new embarrassing questions for believers is not what atheism is about on this forum? Playing with these concepts makes you rude and grumpy? Why are you here... Oh dear. He's having a little hissy fit... You aren't making sense. If that is Aussie, I am glad to be far away from you, on the opposite side of planet Earth... This so far, has not been the most interesting atheist forum I have ever been on. It's just a typical little forum with littler real depth...

It seems your level of debating skills are fairly limited to non-existent. If personal ad hominems and denigrating this forum and its atheist members in general is the very best you can do, then you need a few lessons in diplomacy, manners, and netiquette. And if you think intemperate language and provocation will make your claims more worthy of serious consideration, then you might need a rethink.

You've been told several times that your hypothetical notions and rhetorical questions are wasting everybody's time, but yet you persist. Why?

Maybe you need to leave, and perhaps join a forum wherein its membership is more likely to partake in pointless argumentation, faulty logic, discordant behaviour, and inane questions.

—Oh, and maybe grow up just a wee bit?

I'm a creationist... I believe that man created God.
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