Can a believer explain the justice of the original sins curses?
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11-12-2013, 02:50 PM
RE: Can a believer explain the justice of the original sins curses?
(10-12-2013 07:00 PM)Reltzik Wrote:  For any believers out there. First off, I don't believe for an instant that the Adam-and-Eve story actually happened.
That is why you can not understand it. At least it is one of the reasons.
(10-12-2013 07:00 PM)Reltzik Wrote:  That said, if it were to have happened, it seems incredibly unjust, especially the curses placed upon Adam and Eve and their descendents. Can someone explain how all of this is just?
what curses? where does it say that God CURSED Adam and Eve?
He cursed serpent. I see that. He cursed the ground. I see that.

(10-12-2013 07:00 PM)Reltzik Wrote:  Let me go over the points that strike me as unjust in the first place.
1) This is an old atheist standby. God put what was essentially schmuckbait in front of two people so ignorant of good and evil that they can only be described as schmucks, and then is angry when the schmucks take the schmuckbait.
Angry? Where did you get this idea that God was angry at them?


(10-12-2013 07:00 PM)Reltzik Wrote:  And maybe God planned on the schmucks taking the schmuckbait and then punishing the schmucks for doing exactly what God planned on the schmucks doing all along. I've got issues with this, but let's leave it aside. Dead horse.
Punished?! Where does it say that He punished them? Or it is something that you assume?

(10-12-2013 07:00 PM)Reltzik Wrote:  2) God, who is supposedly infinitely just, curses them for it. (God also curses the serpent, but meh.) God curses Eve with labor pains (bad) and... well, it varies from translation to translation, but either sexual desire for Adam (that's a curse?) or slavery to Adam, and God curses Adam with ground that's hard to farm and thorny weeds. It's easy to see that these curses are unequally applied, because Eve also suffers from Adam's curse, but Adam doesn't suffer from Eve's. It's not like she wouldn't have trouble with hard soil and thorns if she herself tried farming, nor is it as if Adam will ever suffer from labor pains. Now, I utterly reject the idea that justice is all about punishment and nothing more. But I can see how someone caught up in that mentality might call this justice. And I can kinda wrap my mind around the idea (even if I ultimately reject it) that Eve was the principle offender and thus deserves to be punished worse. But I'll leave it aside, too, because that's not what's really bugging me.
Again, where does it say that God curses them? God cursed serpent. Yes. God cursed the ground for Adams sake. Yes.
But where did God say that He cursed Adam and Eve?

(10-12-2013 07:00 PM)Reltzik Wrote:  3) God doesn't just curse Adam and Eve, but also curses their descendents.
Please Book, Chapter, Verse. Where did you find this?

(10-12-2013 07:00 PM)Reltzik Wrote:  4) Finally, and this is where it really gets confusing, the descendents of Adam and Eve are also punished unequally. Women still have to deal with thorns when gardening, and men still don't suffer from labor pains. At this point, we've lost even the fig leaf of justification for punishing Eve worse than Adam. Why are women cursed worse then men? Is it because women are descended from Eve... and men aren't? How in the world does this make any sense at all?
Where does it say that it was punishment or curse?

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11-12-2013, 02:51 PM
RE: Can a believer explain the justice of the original sins curses?
(11-12-2013 02:34 PM)Yasmin Wrote:  
(11-12-2013 02:00 PM)Dom Wrote:  You totally ignore the fact that god knew darn well what would happen if he created flawed creatures. It's not like they surprised him or anything, he created them so that the exact thing could happen. He did set them up. Like a kid playing a video game.

But that's the interesting point: did He create flawed creatures? At the end of creation God deems everything 'good.' Did God create creatures who were flawed and disposed to disobeying God or did they simply exercise their free will by choosing to disobey Him? The 'God and Free Will' thread's just started up with a similar issue, here's what I said:
Knowledge of a choice doesn't mean determination of that choice. This came up on another thread but also related to prayer and actions- if God knows, why bother asking or doing? Look, for example, at the prophet Jeremiah. God says to him 'the people have turned away from me, so you're going to preach my word to them for 40 years. Your life will be in danger, they will hate you for it, and at the end of 40 years no one would have listened. You could ask in relation to free will, 'if God knew no one would listen anyway, why bother going to all that trouble?' Because the choice was given, and they were always free to make it. God is still omniscient even with giving free will to humans.

It's interesting because it relates to anyone who sets boundaries. If I tell my nephew when we're cooking together 'you can touch everything in the kitchen except the hot stove,' am I setting him up for failure by making that boundary and 'tempting' him? Of course not. The Genesis account is about trust: can you trust that God's provided everything you need or are you going to push outside the limit and assume there's something more? God knew the action, but that doesn't mean he forced it.

For me, this has always brought up another issue that people struggle with. Do we have a problem with free will because we think it clashes with the the idea of God's omniscience, or because it creates accountability in our actions?

Well, it doesn't end with tricking them by putting a talking snake and a Viagra apple there, he also had to kill everyone but Noah and his, and repeatedly had to wipe out entire populations. He did this because - they were not flawed? They were exactly what he wanted? or not?

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11-12-2013, 03:02 PM
RE: Can a believer explain the justice of the original sins curses?
(11-12-2013 02:51 PM)Dom Wrote:  Well, it doesn't end with tricking them by putting a talking snake and a Viagra apple there, he also had to kill everyone but Noah and his, and repeatedly had to wipe out entire populations. He did this because - they were not flawed? They were exactly what he wanted? or not?
We can not compare Adam and Eve with those people. When Adam partook of the fruit he didn't know that disobeying God is sin/evil.
Those people knew what they were doing. That is why they were punished.
Imagine all people do evil(like they molest or kill children). God sends prophets and tells them to repent/to stop
What happens when all people commit evil and don't want to change? Their children(new generations) can not learn what good is. They have no opportunity to learn about God and good. All they see is evil.
It is not fair that they have no choice but to become evil. God has to clean the earth and give opportunity to new generations.
But we know from the Bible that all those people will have another chance. They were visited by Jesus(Messiah) and are saved from physical death.

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11-12-2013, 03:06 PM
RE: Can a believer explain the justice of the original sins curses?
(11-12-2013 03:02 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(11-12-2013 02:51 PM)Dom Wrote:  Well, it doesn't end with tricking them by putting a talking snake and a Viagra apple there, he also had to kill everyone but Noah and his, and repeatedly had to wipe out entire populations. He did this because - they were not flawed? They were exactly what he wanted? or not?
We can not compare Adam and Eve with those people. When Adam partook of the fruit he didn't know that disobeying God is sin/evil.
Those people knew what they were doing. That is why they were punished.
Imagine all people do evil(like they molest or kill children). God sends prophets and tells them to repent/to stop
What happens when all people commit evil and don't want to change? Their children(new generations) can not learn what good is. They have no opportunity to learn about God and good. All they see is evil.
It is not fair that they have no choice but to become evil. God has to clean the earth and give opportunity to new generations.
But we know from the Bible that all those people will have another chance. They were visited by Jesus(Messiah) and are saved from physical death.

I hardly think that everyone in the human race but Noah was evil.

And what is this about Jesus saving the people from dying in the flood? Never heard that before, but then I haven't read the bible in many decades. Maybe I missed something.

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11-12-2013, 03:12 PM
RE: Can a believer explain the justice of the original sins curses?
(11-12-2013 01:15 PM)childeye Wrote:  
(11-12-2013 12:12 PM)Brian37 Wrote:  One need go no further than the title of the thread. The answer is no, they cannot.

Everything they base their morality on starts from the naked assertion that a fictional invisible magic sky hero did it. So anything that follows as a "formula" will be just as shitty because the input is crap too.

Bad logic.

Naked assertion<=made up formula<=desired outcome

Good logic.

Established prior data=established tested formula=projected outcome

"sin" is a word rooted in superstition and has absolutely nothing to do with human morality which is rooted in our common and REAL evolution.
Brian 37, you are right in pointing out the hypothetical context of the topic. However your good reasoning formula is no different than your bad reasoning formula. The fact is, that it is established prior knowledge that all is built upon faith. Since we know that what is the eternal can never be proven to be eternal by a temporal view, we have no choice but to have to believe one way or the other. To stand on the fence is to end up with a duplicitous reasoning where both God exists and yet doesn't exist at the same time. To say that it is a fact that the eternal does not exist is a statement without merit. There is just no possible way to conclude there is not that which exists as eternal. There is the general consensus from our temporal view that we are in time while in the universe. This leaves open the very real possibility of that which exists eternally. This is acknowledged in mathematics as well as in philosophy. Ultimately we are simply left asking whether we believe good is greater than evil and therefore whether God is good. If God is good, we want to believe He exists as the eternal. If we believe He is evil, we want to believe He doesn't.

No they are not equal. One is based on faith the other is based on KNOWLEDGE.

Gods are human concocted fairy tales made up by humans and do not have any semblance of of testable and falsifiable standards like that of scientific method. Faith is a cop out.

Quote:If God is good, we want to believe He exists as the eternal. If we believe He is evil, we want to believe He doesn't.

Sorry it does not matter either way if someone views a god as good or evil, there is no such thing as a non material invisible sky hero.

Addressing a particular god claim when we use terms to describe it are an assessment of A CLAIM, not a provable reality.

And none of what you just said addresses the multitude of human concocted sky heros in our species history.

Which makes more sense to you? Which do you think fits in better to the nature of reality?

1. An actual God exists

Or

2. Humans like the idea of God so they make them up and falsely believe in them?

Ocham's Razor says out of a multitude of postulated answers given to fill in a gap the one with the least superfluous baggage is the most likely answer.

Since no one has ever won a Nobel Prize in science sky hero theory my bet is that people make this shit up because the placebo makes them feel good. They are certainly welcome to try, but I won't hold my breath and I won't do their homework for them.

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11-12-2013, 03:23 PM
RE: Can a believer explain the justice of the original sins curses?
(11-12-2013 03:06 PM)Dom Wrote:  
(11-12-2013 03:02 PM)Alla Wrote:  But we know from the Bible that all those people will have another chance. They were visited by Jesus(Messiah) and are saved from physical death.
And what is this about Jesus saving the people from dying in the flood? Never heard that before, but then I haven't read the bible in many decades. Maybe I missed something.

Alla, you can correct me if I'm wrong but did you mean the subsequent generations after Noah would have a second chance when Jesus came?
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11-12-2013, 03:39 PM
RE: Can a believer explain the justice of the original sins curses?
And why does "God" even need to create the "fruit" and the "tree" in the first place?

It's one thing to ask, why set them up by putting the tree right in front of them. Another question is, why "God" even needed to make it. Because he didn't need to. They aren't "trees of the knowledge of good and evil" still on the earth today. There was no need for the tree in the first place. As far as we understand, (if we go by the premiss of the bible) there was only ever one tree created, and the only purpose it served was a purpose for which "God" did "not want" it used for. So if you are "God" and you don't want this tree used, and it serves no other purpose, then why "create" it?

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11-12-2013, 03:53 PM
RE: Can a believer explain the justice of the original sins curses?
(10-12-2013 07:00 PM)Reltzik Wrote:  3) God doesn't just curse Adam and Eve, but also curses their descendents. This is known as a crime of blood, a crime where the punishment applies not only to the offender but to the offender's family. It would be as if you were thrown into jail for, say, committing, say, robbery, and your ten-year-old son were thrown in jail with you as well, and your twenty-year-old daughter, and HER five-month-old baby, none of whom had committed any crime. Or if historians uncovered that your great-great-great-great grandfather was actually John Wilkes Booth, and so you and every member of your family descended from him was hung for assassinating Lincoln. How in the world is this a just punishment?
For the children, how is it even punishment?

They begin with nothing. They are given life. That's a gift, not a punishment, even though child-bearing hurts and we have to work for a living.
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11-12-2013, 03:53 PM
RE: Can a believer explain the justice of the original sins curses?
I can't even get myself to think of this as ever happening just in theory, or for the sake of discussion since it is just so Bat Shit Crazy. If you accept this story as truth and then try to poke holes in a science book on evolution, cosmology, or geology, then you my friend are also Bat Shit Crazy!

Sorry in advance for the outburst but - come on, literal history or metaphorical story - nothing but nonsense.

“Truth does not demand belief. Scientists do not join hands every Sunday, singing, yes, gravity is real! I will have faith! I will be strong! I believe in my heart that what goes up, up, up, must come down, down, down. Amen! If they did, we would think they were pretty insecure about it.”
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11-12-2013, 03:57 PM
RE: Can a believer explain the justice of the original sins curses?
(11-12-2013 03:23 PM)Yasmin Wrote:  
(11-12-2013 03:06 PM)Dom Wrote:  And what is this about Jesus saving the people from dying in the flood? Never heard that before, but then I haven't read the bible in many decades. Maybe I missed something.

Alla, you can correct me if I'm wrong but did you mean the subsequent generations after Noah would have a second chance when Jesus came?
yes. That is why He visited them and preached Gospel to them while He was dead.

English is not my native language.
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