Can a believer explain the justice of the original sins curses?
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11-12-2013, 07:21 PM
RE: Can a believer explain the justice of the original sins curses?
(11-12-2013 06:55 PM)Reltzik Wrote:  Alla: So you're saying that this wasn't a curse or a punishment? I'll grant it doesn't say that explicitly, but it's the only interpretation I can work out in context. The ground isn't just cursed, it's cursed for thy (Adam's) sake. The multiplication of sorrows upon Eve, the toil to farm on Adam (who had previously been able to serve as gardener of all of Eden with just himself and maybe Eve helping), none of this can be viewed as a positive and all of it is God's response to them eating the fruit. I'll grant that the Bible does not explicitly call these things curses, yet it doesn't say they aren't,
You are right. But we know that tree is of knowledge of good and EVIL. Adam and Eve chose to know not only good but evil also. They chose to become like Gods who know good and evil.
God gave them all the evil that exist so they can KNOW.
How does God know good and EVIL?

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12-12-2013, 06:01 AM
RE: Can a believer explain the justice of the original sins curses?
(11-12-2013 06:55 PM)Reltzik Wrote:  So it's a punishment when applied to Adam and Eve for their transgressions, but not when applied to their children for Adam and Eve's transgressions?
Yes. A&E knew life without those curses, so for them it was punishment. The children knew no other life, so it's no punishment to them. By your logic, you could say that God punished A&E by creating them without the ability to fly, or without eyes in the back of their heads, or without omniscience.
Quote:Why would God apply that punishment to their children (who were so far blameless) as well as Adam and Eve, rather than just to Adam and Eve? Why go that extra mile?
It's not a punishment to the children.
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12-12-2013, 08:41 AM
RE: Can a believer explain the justice of the original sins curses?
(12-12-2013 06:01 AM)alpha male Wrote:  
(11-12-2013 06:55 PM)Reltzik Wrote:  So it's a punishment when applied to Adam and Eve for their transgressions, but not when applied to their children for Adam and Eve's transgressions?
Yes. A&E knew life without those curses, so for them it was punishment. The children knew no other life, so it's no punishment to them. By your logic, you could say that God punished A&E by creating them without the ability to fly, or without eyes in the back of their heads, or without omniscience.
Quote:Why would God apply that punishment to their children (who were so far blameless) as well as Adam and Eve, rather than just to Adam and Eve? Why go that extra mile?
It's not a punishment to the children.

Obviously you have never given birth...

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12-12-2013, 08:42 AM
RE: Can a believer explain the justice of the original sins curses?
(11-12-2013 07:21 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(11-12-2013 06:55 PM)Reltzik Wrote:  Alla: So you're saying that this wasn't a curse or a punishment? I'll grant it doesn't say that explicitly, but it's the only interpretation I can work out in context. The ground isn't just cursed, it's cursed for thy (Adam's) sake. The multiplication of sorrows upon Eve, the toil to farm on Adam (who had previously been able to serve as gardener of all of Eden with just himself and maybe Eve helping), none of this can be viewed as a positive and all of it is God's response to them eating the fruit. I'll grant that the Bible does not explicitly call these things curses, yet it doesn't say they aren't,
You are right. But we know that tree is of knowledge of good and EVIL. Adam and Eve chose to know not only good but evil also. They chose to become like Gods who know good and evil.
God gave them all the evil that exist so they can KNOW.
How does God know good and EVIL?

Why did god create good and evil?

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12-12-2013, 10:05 AM
RE: Can a believer explain the justice of the original sins curses?
The more I read the creation story the more it just sounds like basic mythology to me. They are stories to explain why things are the way they are.
"Why is farming so hard?" "Well, a long long time ago, there was a beautiful garden where everything was perfect and easy. But the people there made some bad choices and now we have to work very hard to grow crops. But one day we'll be in that perfect place again. One day.."
"Why does child birth hurt so much?" "Well, a long time ago, there was a beautiful garden where everything was perfect and easy. But one day the people there made some bad choices and now every woman has to suffer in childbearing. But one day we'll be in a place where there's no pain. One day.."
"Why do I have all these lusty feelings?" "Well, a long time ago, there was a beautiful garden where everything was perfect and people walked around with no clothes on and didn't get lusty. But the people there made some bad choices and now everybody has to wear frumpy clothes so we don't have filthy orgies all the time. But one day we'll be in a place where we'll never have to have dirty sex again. One day..."

You get the idea.

When you see it as a mythology, an explanation for things that were as yet unexplainable, it's very easy to determine the time and culture in which the bible was originally written. It has no bearing on my life, because thanks to science, we have answers to these questions now. We know that our hips are narrow as a species because of our bipedalism, so childbirth hurts like a mofo. We know that in certain arid areas, it can be very hard to grow crops due to environment. Nowadays, farming has come a long way with irrigation, genetics, tractors, etc. We know that desire for procreation is an obvious evolutionary advantage, one that has been around since the beginning of time.

Basically, there is no justice here, it's just life. And the Bible simply did its best to explain how and why life is the way it is, just like any other mythology.
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12-12-2013, 10:47 AM
RE: Can a believer explain the justice of the original sins curses?
(11-12-2013 06:26 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(11-12-2013 04:09 PM)Raptor Jesus Wrote:  Where does it say this in the bible?
It doesn't say directly but you may see this from the Bible:
Why Adam and Eve were not mortal before fall? According to the Bible death entered because of the sin. So if Adam didn't sin he would not die. It calls IMMORTALITY.
I do not know why you mention this. It seems superfluous, as I asked no question pertaining to immortality, or death.

(11-12-2013 06:26 PM)Alla Wrote:  Adam was created in the image and likeness of God and he did NOT have earthly parents(was not created in the image of men/flesh and blood). God has no blood.
How do we know this? NO flesh and BLOOD can inherit or be in the kingdom of God.(See 1Cor 15:50)
Genesis 2:23-24 says: “23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man. 24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.”

So by your “revelation” about this, Adam was created of flesh, in “God’s” own image, prior to the fall. Which Indicates that “God” has flesh in heaven. After all, based on your own logic, the only reason Adam would have flesh, or blood, prior to the fall, is if "God" did have flesh, or blood. However the scripture you quoted states “NO flesh and BLOOD can inherit or be in the kingdom of God.(See 1Cor 15:50)”.

Your reasoning for Adam not having blood, prior to the fall, is based on this verse, which by the same reasoning Adam should not have flesh prior to the fall, but we see that the bible says he does, prior to the fall. The premise is there for faulty, and as such cannot be used as an explanation for why, as you claim, Adam and Eve had no blood prior to the fall.

I there you need some other "evidence" from the bible that Adam and Eve had no blood, or you have to abandon that hypothesis, as it is not biblically supported.

And getting back to my original question, what would any of that have to do with having a child anyway. If Adam and Eve did not need blood to deliver oxygen and nutrients to their brains, and body tissues, and regulate their core temperatures, and the other vital functions it performs, then why would it be necessary for giving birth? And where in the bible does it say, this is the reason they could not give birth? Or where in the bible does it even say they could not have children, prior to the fall?

In Genesis 1:28, “God” says to Adam and Eve, “And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth” This was said prior to the fall, indicating, straight from “God’s” mouth, that they were capable of baring children prior to the fall.

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12-12-2013, 10:57 AM
RE: Can a believer explain the justice of the original sins curses?
(12-12-2013 10:47 AM)Raptor Jesus Wrote:  “And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth” This was said prior to the fall, indicating, straight from “God’s” mouth, that they were capable of baring children prior to the fall.

And he was already aware that they would not stay in paradise - he said "earth". And he was pretty shortsighted, multiplying doesn't replenish anything, it strips the earth of resources.

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12-12-2013, 11:20 AM
RE: Can a believer explain the justice of the original sins curses?
(11-12-2013 12:55 PM)childeye Wrote:  We exist in a universe that is in time. As we know, time is relative. To us what is thousands of years to us could be a split second some place outside of our universe. So when you say He could have given us all of this including "the lesson", it could be argued that He is doing exactly that.
This completely misses what I said. Please go back and read. What I said is God could have done it all without "the lesson". So how is including the lesson "doing exactly that"? Consider

(11-12-2013 12:55 PM)childeye Wrote:  
Quote:I'm still not seeing how this isn't the fault of an evil "god". He chose the pain and suffering route for us instead of another merciful one.
I'm not following you here. From what I see, He did it perfectly.
Let's see, we have pain and suffering, but this is perfect? So you're saying a god who supposedly can do anything couldn't have done better? Consider

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12-12-2013, 11:27 AM
RE: Can a believer explain the justice of the original sins curses?
(11-12-2013 01:45 PM)Yasmin Wrote:  I don't think it would be correct to approach this question as God 'setting them up,' with two idiots being deliberately tempted then punished by Him. They were created in innocence, but not of naivety- they were given free will and the choice they made had consequences.

So God creates man and woman, and has an intimate relationship with them. Because they are not created simply to be robotic worshipping beings, the relationship is based on their choosing to walk with God and obey his command. Then the serpent comes and says to the woman (who unfortunately never gets the credit for actually disputing with the serpent- Adam just stands there and eats it) that basically they've been living a lie. Right over there is the opportunity to be like God, but God's been keeping it from you in order to keep you down.

So even though God has provided everything they need, they fail to trust God and instead eat the fruit. And as a result they have a knowledge of good and evil- they know the consequences of moving outside of God's command.

When you say God could've given the lesson without the suffering, that's not possible. In a way, they brought the lesson on themselves by choosing not to trust God. The 'lesson' was brought about because they chose a path which was not intended for them when they were created.
Let me make this real simple. God is omnipotent (that's what you believe, right?) We have pain and suffering. God could have made everything exactly the same minus the pain and suffering (yes exactly the same otherwise - he's God after all). That means we would still have free will (as "free" as it is now, that is), would still have the benefits of "the lesson", and would still have everything else. Just no pain and suffering. But we have pain and suffering. So God screwed up - oh wait, he's omnipotent - so God is evil.

(11-12-2013 01:45 PM)Yasmin Wrote:  
(11-12-2013 12:40 PM)Impulse Wrote:  I'm still not seeing how this isn't the fault of an evil "god". He chose the pain and suffering route for us instead of another merciful one.

Even though the choice had consequences, God wasn't 'evil.' What was His first act after He stated the punishment? Not lightening bolts, not giving them some awful disease, not setting a wild animal on them- He clothed them. Their lives would now be marked by the consequences of their choice, but God didn't write them off. That I think is the merciful route.
That's like a rapist handing his victim clothes after violating her and you saying the rapist is merciful because of that. Rolleyes

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12-12-2013, 11:34 AM
RE: Can a believer explain the justice of the original sins curses?
(12-12-2013 11:27 AM)Impulse Wrote:  Let me make this real simple. God is omnipotent (that's what you believe, right?) We have pain and suffering. God could have made everything exactly the same minus the pain and suffering (yes exactly the same otherwise - he's God after all).
The omnipotence means ability to do anything argument - which is conveniently forgotten in every omniscience v. free will thread. Angel
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