Can an atheist say? : "God doesn't exists".
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19-09-2014, 08:19 AM
RE: Can an atheist say? : "God doesn't exists".
(19-09-2014 07:11 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(18-09-2014 10:54 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  I think that if there is no evidence for an idea or concept, but it does not contradict any facts of reality then it is still possible that evidence could turn up for that thing and it is proper to say "I don't know". However if there is no evidence and it does contradict known facts, then it is proper to say that thing doesn't exist. The God concept meets the latter criteria.

I recognize that I am in a small minority but I have recently become a strong atheist. The God concept contradicts every fundamental principle of metaphysics that is self evident and observable and for that reason I think it is logically sound to say that God doesn't exist. If God does exist, then everything I know to be true would be false and I would no longer be able to trust my own mind.

I've been using the argument from primacy lately with theists and not one of them has tried to refute it. When I bring it up, they clam right up and refuse to interact with it. A few have denied that it is sound but give no reasons why. They do get very angry which I take as a sign that the argument has hit home. I don't think it can be refuted because they have to accept and use the main premise even to attempt to refute it.

I am unfamiliar with the argument from primacy, and Google failed me on it.

Oh it is saying something is true because it is in a Primus song.




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19-09-2014, 08:20 AM (This post was last modified: 19-09-2014 08:25 AM by Adrianime.)
RE: Can an atheist say? : "God doesn't exists".
God doesn't exist.

1. Yes this is not a statement that you can prove, because to prove this would require "god-like" qualities.
2. I find it dishonest to myself to consider something that isn't disprovable as a possibility (just because it is disprovable) even when there is no supporting evidence, and most non-evidenced claims conflict with current acquired knowledge of physics, biology, geology....or just science in general. If I were to consider other similar claims I'd be unable to declare that magic or giant invisible dragons don't exist.
3. For me personally, it's a matter of certainty. I don't find virtually anything to be for certain to the point where my "knowledge" is infallible and definite. I'm about as certain that there is no god as I am that the earth rotates around the sun. I could be wrong about both, but I don't find it productive to carry along as if that is the case.

So yeah, god doesn't exist. I'll revise this stance if I ever find it necessary.

I prefer fantasy, but I have to live in reality.
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19-09-2014, 08:24 AM
RE: Can an atheist say? : "God doesn't exists".
(19-09-2014 07:11 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(18-09-2014 10:54 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  I think that if there is no evidence for an idea or concept, but it does not contradict any facts of reality then it is still possible that evidence could turn up for that thing and it is proper to say "I don't know". However if there is no evidence and it does contradict known facts, then it is proper to say that thing doesn't exist. The God concept meets the latter criteria.

I recognize that I am in a small minority but I have recently become a strong atheist. The God concept contradicts every fundamental principle of metaphysics that is self evident and observable and for that reason I think it is logically sound to say that God doesn't exist. If God does exist, then everything I know to be true would be false and I would no longer be able to trust my own mind.

I've been using the argument from primacy lately with theists and not one of them has tried to refute it. When I bring it up, they clam right up and refuse to interact with it. A few have denied that it is sound but give no reasons why. They do get very angry which I take as a sign that the argument has hit home. I don't think it can be refuted because they have to accept and use the main premise even to attempt to refute it.

I am unfamiliar with the argument from primacy, and Google failed me on it.

Primacy of Existence

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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19-09-2014, 08:32 AM
RE: Can an atheist say? : "God doesn't exists".
(19-09-2014 07:11 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(18-09-2014 10:54 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  I think that if there is no evidence for an idea or concept, but it does not contradict any facts of reality then it is still possible that evidence could turn up for that thing and it is proper to say "I don't know". However if there is no evidence and it does contradict known facts, then it is proper to say that thing doesn't exist. The God concept meets the latter criteria.

I recognize that I am in a small minority but I have recently become a strong atheist. The God concept contradicts every fundamental principle of metaphysics that is self evident and observable and for that reason I think it is logically sound to say that God doesn't exist. If God does exist, then everything I know to be true would be false and I would no longer be able to trust my own mind.

I've been using the argument from primacy lately with theists and not one of them has tried to refute it. When I bring it up, they clam right up and refuse to interact with it. A few have denied that it is sound but give no reasons why. They do get very angry which I take as a sign that the argument has hit home. I don't think it can be refuted because they have to accept and use the main premise even to attempt to refute it.

I am unfamiliar with the argument from primacy, and Google failed me on it.

The argument from primacy has to do with the principle of the primacy of existence. The primacy of existence is a fundamental, axiomatic concept having to do with the relationship between consciousness and existence. It is a corollary of the three axioms of philosophy which are implicit in all knowledge. They are existence, identity and consciousness. The concept "existence" is simply an affirmation of the truth of the statement "existence exists". Also to exist is to possess a specific identity or set of attributes. Consciousness is consciousness of an object. Do the objects of consciousness conform to the subject or does the subject conform to the objects.

The principle is that things are what they are and do what they do independent of anyone's conscious will. Facts are facts no matter what anyone wants or desires. Consciousness is the faculty that perceives what exists, not the faculty that creates it. Wishing doesn't make it so. A is A. This is directly observable, not inferred from any antecedent principles. This principle can be tested by anyone at any time. The corollary in epistemology is that knowledge of the world is gained by looking outward at the world, not through introspection or imagination. This is where the term objectivity comes from. Concepts such as "proof" and "truth" and "argument" necessarily rest on it. When someone says something is true they are not saying it is true because they want it to be. They are saying it is a fact, independent of anyone's likes, dislikes, dreams, wishes, fears, desires, preferences or demands. As soon as anyone says "it is", just that much, the axioms and the primacy of existence are implicit.

The opposite of this is the primacy of consciousness. This principle states that things obtain their identity and existence from a consciousness. That A can be A or non A. That wishing makes it so. Its corollary in epistemology is faith or introspection to gain knowledge of the world without sense perception. This is where the term subjective comes from.

The god claim directly contradicts the principle of the primacy of existence. To claim that god exists is saying there is an existence which is independent of anyone's consciousness and there also exists this consciousness which everything that exists is dependent on.

Here are the two arguments in the form of syllogisms:

1. If the objects of consciousness do not conform to the subject, then existence holds metaphysical primacy over consciousness.

2. The objects of consciousness do not conform the the subject of consciousness.

3. Therefore existence holds metaphysical primacy.

and

1. If existence holds metaphysical primacy over consciousness, then the universe was not created by a god.

2. Existence holds metaphysical primacy.

3. Therefore the universe was not created by a god.

Anyone who denies that existence holds primacy should be asked if that is true because they want it to be true or is it true independent of anyone's likes or dislikes.

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Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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19-09-2014, 08:41 AM
RE: Can an atheist say? : "God doesn't exists".
(19-09-2014 08:32 AM)true scotsman Wrote:  
(19-09-2014 07:11 AM)Chas Wrote:  I am unfamiliar with the argument from primacy, and Google failed me on it.

The argument from primacy has to do with the principle of the primacy of existence. The primacy of existence is a fundamental, axiomatic concept having to do with the relationship between consciousness and existence. It is a corollary of the three axioms of philosophy which are implicit in all knowledge. They are existence, identity and consciousness. The concept "existence" is simply an affirmation of the truth of the statement "existence exists". Also to exist is to possess a specific identity or set of attributes. Consciousness is consciousness of an object. Do the objects of consciousness conform to the subject or does the subject conform to the objects.

The principle is that things are what they are and do what they do independent of anyone's conscious will. Facts are facts no matter what anyone wants or desires. Consciousness is the faculty that perceives what exists, not the faculty that creates it. Wishing doesn't make it so. A is A. This is directly observable, not inferred from any antecedent principles. This principle can be tested by anyone at any time. The corollary in epistemology is that knowledge of the world is gained by looking outward at the world, not through introspection or imagination. This is where the term objectivity comes from. Concepts such as "proof" and "truth" and "argument" necessarily rest on it. When someone says something is true they are not saying it is true because they want it to be. They are saying it is a fact, independent of anyone's likes, dislikes, dreams, wishes, fears, desires, preferences or demands. As soon as anyone says "it is", just that much, the axioms and the primacy of existence are implicit.

The opposite of this is the primacy of consciousness. This principle states that things obtain their identity and existence from a consciousness. That A can be A or non A. That wishing makes it so. Its corollary in epistemology is faith or introspection to gain knowledge of the world without sense perception. This is where the term subjective comes from.

The god claim directly contradicts the principle of the primacy of existence. To claim that god exists is saying there is an existence which is independent of anyone's consciousness and there also exists this consciousness which everything that exists is dependent on.

Here are the two arguments in the form of syllogisms:

1. If the objects of consciousness do not conform to the subject, then existence holds metaphysical primacy over consciousness.

2. The objects of consciousness do not conform the the subject of consciousness.

3. Therefore existence holds metaphysical primacy.

and

1. If existence holds metaphysical primacy over consciousness, then the universe was not created by a god.

2. Existence holds metaphysical primacy.

3. Therefore the universe was not created by a god.

Anyone who denies that existence holds primacy should be asked if that is true because they want it to be true or is it true independent of anyone's likes or dislikes.

Can you say more about #1 in the second set ? I don't get why that has to be.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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19-09-2014, 09:14 AM
RE: Can an atheist say? : "God doesn't exists".
When you say "God", it is quite clear which god it is you are talking about. The judeo-christian god that appears in the old and new testament.
Now, this is not any god. This god in particular has been defined pretty well. He has certain charasteristics and attributes that have been clearly described and is supposedly responsible for a number of "supernatural"events.
As far as we know (please correct me if I'm wrong) nothing with those charasteristics and attributes has ever been found and none of the "supernatural" events have been demonstrated to have happened.

You could argue that just because nothing with those charasteristics and attributes has been found, it does not necessarily mean it doesn't exist. But the fact that none of those events took place clearly means that if an entity with the same charasteristics and attributes were to be found it would still not be the god you mention.

So ..yeah.

"God" doesn't exist.
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19-09-2014, 10:01 AM
RE: Can an atheist say? : "God doesn't exists".
I cant say that invisible pink unicorns do not exist but please don't be stupid and ask me to ponder such absurdities. Not knowing the future does not mean we cant throw bullshit claims into the trash can.

Stephen Hawkins" A god is not required".

Combine that with all the dead god claims no one buys anymore, and your choices are clear as what reality is.

1. A god exists.

or

2. Humans make them up.

Poetry by Brian37(poems by an atheist) Also on Facebook as BrianJames Rational Poet and Twitter Brianrrs37
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19-09-2014, 10:43 AM
RE: Can an atheist say? : "God doesn't exists".
No, they can't. Everyone knows that God exists, so atheists are being dishonest when they say that.

Truth seeker.
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19-09-2014, 11:05 AM
RE: Can an atheist say? : "God doesn't exists".
(19-09-2014 10:43 AM)diddo97 Wrote:  No, they can't. Everyone knows that God exists, so atheists are being dishonest when they say that.

Shut the fuck up ye scurvy dog! Arrrrr!
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19-09-2014, 11:07 AM
RE: Can an atheist say? : "God doesn't exists".
(19-09-2014 11:05 AM)pablo Wrote:  
(19-09-2014 10:43 AM)diddo97 Wrote:  No, they can't. Everyone knows that God exists, so atheists are being dishonest when they say that.

Shut the fuck up ye scurvy dog! Arrrrr!

He's really tedious, eh?

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