Can an atheist say? : "God doesn't exists".
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19-09-2014, 11:10 AM
RE: Can an atheist say? : "God doesn't exists".
Hey, diddo.

I haven't seen you around trolling for a while now.

Hope you are doing fine.

Now go away
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19-09-2014, 11:21 AM
RE: Can an atheist say? : "God doesn't exists".
(19-09-2014 08:41 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(19-09-2014 08:32 AM)true scotsman Wrote:  The argument from primacy has to do with the principle of the primacy of existence. The primacy of existence is a fundamental, axiomatic concept having to do with the relationship between consciousness and existence. It is a corollary of the three axioms of philosophy which are implicit in all knowledge. They are existence, identity and consciousness. The concept "existence" is simply an affirmation of the truth of the statement "existence exists". Also to exist is to possess a specific identity or set of attributes. Consciousness is consciousness of an object. Do the objects of consciousness conform to the subject or does the subject conform to the objects.

The principle is that things are what they are and do what they do independent of anyone's conscious will. Facts are facts no matter what anyone wants or desires. Consciousness is the faculty that perceives what exists, not the faculty that creates it. Wishing doesn't make it so. A is A. This is directly observable, not inferred from any antecedent principles. This principle can be tested by anyone at any time. The corollary in epistemology is that knowledge of the world is gained by looking outward at the world, not through introspection or imagination. This is where the term objectivity comes from. Concepts such as "proof" and "truth" and "argument" necessarily rest on it. When someone says something is true they are not saying it is true because they want it to be. They are saying it is a fact, independent of anyone's likes, dislikes, dreams, wishes, fears, desires, preferences or demands. As soon as anyone says "it is", just that much, the axioms and the primacy of existence are implicit.

The opposite of this is the primacy of consciousness. This principle states that things obtain their identity and existence from a consciousness. That A can be A or non A. That wishing makes it so. Its corollary in epistemology is faith or introspection to gain knowledge of the world without sense perception. This is where the term subjective comes from.

The god claim directly contradicts the principle of the primacy of existence. To claim that god exists is saying there is an existence which is independent of anyone's consciousness and there also exists this consciousness which everything that exists is dependent on.

Here are the two arguments in the form of syllogisms:

1. If the objects of consciousness do not conform to the subject, then existence holds metaphysical primacy over consciousness.

2. The objects of consciousness do not conform the the subject of consciousness.

3. Therefore existence holds metaphysical primacy.

and

1. If existence holds metaphysical primacy over consciousness, then the universe was not created by a god.

2. Existence holds metaphysical primacy.

3. Therefore the universe was not created by a god.

Anyone who denies that existence holds primacy should be asked if that is true because they want it to be true or is it true independent of anyone's likes or dislikes.

Can you say more about #1 in the second set ? I don't get why that has to be.

Yes. When someone says that "God exists" They are saying its existence is a fact of reality independent of anyone's conscious wishes or likes. The primacy of existence is implicit in this statement, but the content of the statement contradicts this principle. According to the god concept everything in existence conforms to the conscious will of a god, gets its identity from this god and can be altered by this god. Water can turn to wine and if you say to the mountain move it will move and nothing will be impossible to you. It is the equivalent of saying A can be A and non A at the same time and in the same respect. The universe can't have two contradictory natures. Just ask any theist if their God's existence is dependent on their consciousness and they will be forced to affirm the primacy of existence principle or admit that their god exists only in their imagination. We do not have a single objective example of a consciousness that holds primacy over its objects. It is a made up concept.

Again they are saying that God's existence is a fact but in so doing they contradict the principle on which all facts must necessarily depend to be facts. They are committing the fallacy of the stolen concept. They are using a higher level concept while denying a concept in its genetic hierarchy. They are attempting to use logic to undermine logic, because if consciousness holds primacy then there is no such thing as logic or objective truth. We would live in a subjective universe and what is true for one might not be true for another.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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19-09-2014, 11:23 AM
RE: Can an atheist say? : "God doesn't exists".
(19-09-2014 10:43 AM)diddo97 Wrote:  No, they can't. Everyone knows that God exists, so atheists are being dishonest when they say that.

OK. Go ahead and refute the argument from primacy without using the primacy principle. It can't be done. Premise one and two are true so therefor the conclusion is true. But by all means go ahead and try Diddo.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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19-09-2014, 11:25 AM
RE: Can an atheist say? : "God doesn't exists".
(19-09-2014 10:43 AM)diddo97 Wrote:  No, they can't. Everyone knows that God exists, so atheists are being dishonest when they say that.

I honestly don't know that God exists, so it is not the case that everyone knows that God exists.

See how that works? It's called logic.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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19-09-2014, 11:30 AM
RE: Can an atheist say? : "God doesn't exists".
(19-09-2014 11:25 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(19-09-2014 10:43 AM)diddo97 Wrote:  No, they can't. Everyone knows that God exists, so atheists are being dishonest when they say that.

I honestly don't know that God exists, so it is not the case that everyone knows that God exists.

See how that works? It's called logic.

Oh, but you do. Drinking Beverage

Truth seeker.
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19-09-2014, 11:45 AM
RE: Can an atheist say? : "God doesn't exists".
The logical argument has nothing to do with atheist or theist... it has to do with certainty.

The statements:
"I don't believe there is a god."
and
"There is no god."
There is a difference - the first is uncertain, the second is certain.
***

Personal logic provides a third avenue: I couldn't give a shit either way.
Whether there is a god or not has nothing to do with me. No one has provided any reason to think a god would have any relevance in my life. With or without a god hanging around, I would conduct myself exactly the same. I'm not manipulated by someone else's emotions and I'm not distracted from living right now by the shinny promise of a future or post death existence.

After all, I am an adult. Drinking Beverage

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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19-09-2014, 11:47 AM
RE: Can an atheist say? : "God doesn't exists".
@OP:
Yes. However, the sentence wouldn't be grammatically correct. Drinking Beverage

The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
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19-09-2014, 11:49 AM
RE: Can an atheist say? : "God doesn't exists".
(19-09-2014 11:45 AM)kim Wrote:  Personal logic provides a third avenue: I couldn't give a shit either way.
Whether there is a god or not has nothing to do with me. No one has provided any reason to think a god would have any relevance in my life. With or without a god hanging around, I would conduct myself exactly the same. :

No relevance? What about your just fate?

(19-09-2014 11:45 AM)kim Wrote:  I'm not manipulated by someone else's emotions and I'm not distracted from living right now by the shinny promise of a future or post death existence.

After all, I am an adult. :cup
You are. There is no escape. Drinking Beverage

Truth seeker.
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19-09-2014, 12:04 PM
RE: Can an atheist say? : "God doesn't exists".
(19-09-2014 11:30 AM)diddo97 Wrote:  
(19-09-2014 11:25 AM)Chas Wrote:  I honestly don't know that God exists, so it is not the case that everyone knows that God exists.

See how that works? It's called logic.

Oh, but you do. Drinking Beverage

You're a mind reader? Do you tell fortunes, too? Can you talk to my deceased mother?

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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19-09-2014, 12:06 PM
RE: Can an atheist say? : "God doesn't exists".
(19-09-2014 11:49 AM)diddo97 Wrote:  
(19-09-2014 11:45 AM)kim Wrote:  Personal logic provides a third avenue: I couldn't give a shit either way.
Whether there is a god or not has nothing to do with me. No one has provided any reason to think a god would have any relevance in my life. With or without a god hanging around, I would conduct myself exactly the same. :

No relevance? What about your just fate?

Fate is an imaginary concept, so there is no just or unjust fate.

Quote:
(19-09-2014 11:45 AM)kim Wrote:  I'm not manipulated by someone else's emotions and I'm not distracted from living right now by the shinny promise of a future or post death existence.

After all, I am an adult. :cup
You are. There is no escape. Drinking Beverage

You are so funny, dildo. Smile

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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