Can anyone explain how this wasn't God?
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04-03-2012, 12:12 AM
RE: Can anyone explain how this wasn't God?
(03-03-2012 10:36 PM)bjgodsimage Wrote:  i dont understand, so are you saying youre only willing to conform to the way the world thinks through theology and all?

No, I'm willing to conform my theology based on what is evident in scripture.

Quote:you asked me for free will verses, i gave them to you, i answered all your questions,

No, you didn't. You gave random verses that had nothing to do with free will and formed an unsupported, illogical conclusion from them. You have made it a habit of taking scripture out of context and forming into what you want it to say.

You did not once offer a viable refutation for anything I said.

Quote: the only question now is will you believe with your spirit and not by what you see and understand,

I believe what is said in scripture. The Holy Spirit gives me discernment based on the knowledge I've gain through studying the Bible, theology, and other elders of the faith.

Your theological knowledge and discernment are, quite frankly, disastrous.

Quote:we walk by faith and not by sight, when you do that you will understand For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways,” declares the LORD. “As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.” Isaiah 55:8-9,

And we learn about God through scripture. Your errant positions are unsupported by scripture, and you refuse to understand or study what it actually says.

Quote: im not badgering you or nothing, im jus doin the will of god

I don't doubt this; however, I am as well. The will of God is for me open close-minded, indoctrinated Christians into actually being knowledgeable of their Holy Book and the meanings behind its words.

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04-03-2012, 12:24 AM
RE: Can anyone explain how this wasn't God?
(04-03-2012 12:12 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(03-03-2012 10:36 PM)bjgodsimage Wrote:  i dont understand, so are you saying youre only willing to conform to the way the world thinks through theology and all?

No, I'm willing to conform my theology based on what is evident in scripture.

Quote:you asked me for free will verses, i gave them to you, i answered all your questions,

No, you didn't. You gave random verses that had nothing to do with free will and formed an unsupported, illogical conclusion from them. You have made it a habit of taking scripture out of context and forming into what you want it to say.

You did not once offer a viable refutation for anything I said.

Quote: the only question now is will you believe with your spirit and not by what you see and understand,

I believe what is said in scripture. The Holy Spirit gives me discernment based on the knowledge I've gain through studying the Bible, theology, and other elders of the faith.

Your theological knowledge and discernment are, quite frankly, disastrous.

Quote:we walk by faith and not by sight, when you do that you will understand For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways,” declares the LORD. “As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.” Isaiah 55:8-9,

And we learn about God through scripture. Your errant positions are unsupported by scripture, and you refuse to understand or study what it actually says.

Quote: im not badgering you or nothing, im jus doin the will of god

I don't doubt this; however, I am as well. The will of God is for me open close-minded, indoctrinated Christians into actually being knowledgeable of their Holy Book and the meanings behind its words.

deuteronomy 30:19 I call heaven and earth as witness this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live,...... Well hallelujah i know your smart so i dont have to break this sentence down all im going to say is CHOOSE
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04-03-2012, 12:29 AM
RE: Can anyone explain how this wasn't God?
Christians of all denominations use scripture to suit their pre concieved value judgements.

For examples: J. Witnesses are moved by God to interpret "in the beginning was the word" to in the beginning was a word"....quite different in the context.

In Timothy, we read that a little wine is good for the stomach, in the O.T it is described as a mocker.

Seventh Day adventists have used Daniel to forecast numerous comings of Christ.

Arguably, ratherthan search and construe the scriptures to ones liking, Gnosticism may present a more genuine and personal method.
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04-03-2012, 12:43 AM
RE: Can anyone explain how this wasn't God?
(03-03-2012 08:43 PM)bjgodsimage Wrote:  You said you are a Christian, So why dont you accept Christ Death for you personally?

Pretentious, arrogant, condescending. You are not atypical. And, it's a shame.

Quote:.................For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. - Romans 10:12,13

I'm getting tired of repeating myself over and over. This is about types of men, as I've stated before. Paul is telling believers that salvation isn't just for the Jews.

Quote:Consider this verse in its plain sense meaning. This is not some cryptic reference to the elect calling on the Lord, but takes the form of an open invitation for all unsaved people to call on the Lord regardless of whether they are Jew or Gentile.

There is nothing cryptic about what the Greek actually says.

Quote:"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!" - Matthew 23:37

Here, the Lord Jesus is wanting to bring Jerusalem back to himself in a salvation relationship, but they are not willing. This is not a case of a totally depraved will choosing evil. To suggest that these people did not have a chance to respond to the Saviour's call makes a mockery of the Saviour's statement.

Jesus is very blatantly referring to God's chosen people here... the Jews. Jesus is talking to the Pharisees and is condemning them and their wickedness. Jesus isn't talking about salvation here. He is talking about the rejection of Him from His own people. The context of the verse is very clear. Pharisees were the Jewish religious leaders, and they were condemning Jesus and His ministry; therefor, Jesus calls them out on it and laments.

Quote:Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, "Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me." And when he heard this, he was very sorrowful: for he was very rich. - Luke 18:22,23

Jesus was using the RYR as an example of elect vs non-elect. Jesus often taught in parables and symbolism decided to use the instance before Him as a teaching tool. Jesus made it impossible for the RYR to receive salvation while the RYR couldn't figure out why would could not have eternal life.

Jesus uses the metaphor of "rich" to tell the disciples that the non-elect could never get into heaven. The disciples obviously understood what He was saying because they were astonished at it, and then ask about who could get into heaven and their own salvation (this obviously applies to the non-rich).

Take this conversation into context. If Jesus was literally talking about the rich, then why would the disciples ask about everyone else including themselves?

Jesus also plainly says it when He says, "With people this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

Was this call by the Lord Jesus real, or not? This man walked away from a direct call of the Lord. Can a person really suggest that Jesus said this to the rich young ruler knowing full well he was incapable of following him?

Quote:For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. - John 3:16

I'm not going to repeat myself a third time about this verse.

Quote:Yes, there are occurences in the Bible where "world" does not refer to all of mankind, but it is a mistake to think that because a particular meaning can be assigned to a word, we must assign that meaning wherever the conventional meaning does not fit our system of theology. Likewise, the word "whosoever" (a word that appears in the Greek about 1000 times in the New Testament) can have a meaning that is less than all inclusive, but it is a stretch to say that because the word can mean this, it always means this when applied to salvation.

Except, you know, when Greek doesn't actually say "whosoever". Please study your Greek and then get back with me.

Quote:For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe. - 1 Timothy 4:10

How does this verse fit into the athiest view of limited atonement? Obviously it doesn't. However, for those who do not believe in limited atonement, it is clear. Christ is a Savior of all men because He died for all men, but He is especially the Savior for those who believe because in them the saving work is effectual kevn.... listen to Shekinah Glory Ministries- Jesus

"Men" here is anthropos which means all types of men. The context states this. It is referring to all manner of men, kings and those who are in authority

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04-03-2012, 12:48 AM
RE: Can anyone explain how this wasn't God?
(04-03-2012 12:29 AM)Mr Woof Wrote:  Christians of all denominations use scripture to suit their pre concieved value judgements.

For examples: J. Witnesses are moved by God to interpret "in the beginning was the word" to in the beginning was a word"....quite different in the context.

In Timothy, we read that a little wine is good for the stomach, in the O.T it is described as a mocker.

Seventh Day adventists have used Daniel to forecast numerous comings of Christ.

Arguably, ratherthan search and construe the scriptures to ones liking, Gnosticism may present a more genuine and personal method.

and your absolutely right, i hate when other christians do that, but you gotta know everybody who call thereselves christians arent led by the spirit, they are considered "spooky".. and with a passion i hate when they take scripture out of text, they try to make the bible fit there perspective, when the bible has its own perspective, the real perspective, and when they take it out of context like you said it makes all of us look bad, but i took nothing out of context. believe me
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04-03-2012, 12:50 AM
RE: Can anyone explain how this wasn't God?
(04-03-2012 12:48 AM)bjgodsimage Wrote:  and your absolutely right, i hate when other christians do that, but you gotta know everybody who call thereselves christians arent led by the spirit, they are considered "spooky".. and with a passion i hate when they take scripture out of text, they try to make the bible fit there perspective, when the bible has its own perspective, the real perspective, and when they take it out of context like you said it makes all of us look bad, but i took nothing out of context. believe me

You should heed your own advice.

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04-03-2012, 12:56 AM (This post was last modified: 04-03-2012 01:00 AM by bjgodsimage.)
RE: Can anyone explain how this wasn't God?
(04-03-2012 12:43 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(03-03-2012 08:43 PM)bjgodsimage Wrote:  You said you are a Christian, So why dont you accept Christ Death for you personally?

Pretentious, arrogant, condescending. You are not atypical. And, it's a shame.

Quote:.................For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. - Romans 10:12,13

I'm getting tired of repeating myself over and over. This is about types of men, as I've stated before. Paul is telling believers that salvation isn't just for the Jews.

Quote:Consider this verse in its plain sense meaning. This is not some cryptic reference to the elect calling on the Lord, but takes the form of an open invitation for all unsaved people to call on the Lord regardless of whether they are Jew or Gentile.

There is nothing cryptic about what the Greek actually says.

Quote:"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!" - Matthew 23:37

Here, the Lord Jesus is wanting to bring Jerusalem back to himself in a salvation relationship, but they are not willing. This is not a case of a totally depraved will choosing evil. To suggest that these people did not have a chance to respond to the Saviour's call makes a mockery of the Saviour's statement.

Jesus is very blatantly referring to God's chosen people here... the Jews. Jesus is talking to the Pharisees and is condemning them and their wickedness. Jesus isn't talking about salvation here. He is talking about the rejection of Him from His own people. The context of the verse is very clear. Pharisees were the Jewish religious leaders, and they were condemning Jesus and His ministry; therefor, Jesus calls them out on it and laments.

Quote:Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, "Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me." And when he heard this, he was very sorrowful: for he was very rich. - Luke 18:22,23

Jesus was using the RYR as an example of elect vs non-elect. Jesus often taught in parables and symbolism decided to use the instance before Him as a teaching tool. Jesus made it impossible for the RYR to receive salvation while the RYR couldn't figure out why would could not have eternal life.

Jesus uses the metaphor of "rich" to tell the disciples that the non-elect could never get into heaven. The disciples obviously understood what He was saying because they were astonished at it, and then ask about who could get into heaven and their own salvation (this obviously applies to the non-rich).

Take this conversation into context. If Jesus was literally talking about the rich, then why would the disciples ask about everyone else including themselves?

Jesus also plainly says it when He says, "With people this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

Was this call by the Lord Jesus real, or not? This man walked away from a direct call of the Lord. Can a person really suggest that Jesus said this to the rich young ruler knowing full well he was incapable of following him?

Quote:For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. - John 3:16

I'm not going to repeat myself a third time about this verse.

Quote:Yes, there are occurences in the Bible where "world" does not refer to all of mankind, but it is a mistake to think that because a particular meaning can be assigned to a word, we must assign that meaning wherever the conventional meaning does not fit our system of theology. Likewise, the word "whosoever" (a word that appears in the Greek about 1000 times in the New Testament) can have a meaning that is less than all inclusive, but it is a stretch to say that because the word can mean this, it always means this when applied to salvation.

Except, you know, when Greek doesn't actually say "whosoever". Please study your Greek and then get back with me.

Quote:For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe. - 1 Timothy 4:10

How does this verse fit into the athiest view of limited atonement? Obviously it doesn't. However, for those who do not believe in limited atonement, it is clear. Christ is a Savior of all men because He died for all men, but He is especially the Savior for those who believe because in them the saving work is effectual kevn.... listen to Shekinah Glory Ministries- Jesus

"Men" here is anthropos which means all types of men. The context states this. It is referring to all manner of men, kings and those who are in authority

man if i was to blunt when i asked you that im sorry, i guess i was, where exactly do you get your logic or pov of scriptures from? honestly? and read that deutoronomy 30:19 man, it has free will written all over it
(04-03-2012 12:50 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(04-03-2012 12:48 AM)bjgodsimage Wrote:  and your absolutely right, i hate when other christians do that, but you gotta know everybody who call thereselves christians arent led by the spirit, they are considered "spooky".. and with a passion i hate when they take scripture out of text, they try to make the bible fit there perspective, when the bible has its own perspective, the real perspective, and when they take it out of context like you said it makes all of us look bad, but i took nothing out of context. believe me

You should heed your own advice.

man like i said, where do you get your logic for the scripture, the clearly says one thing, but you twist it to match your belief, people always try to dig into scripture trying to find what it means, when really its simple, you try to dig a big hole when it starts with a little shovel
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04-03-2012, 01:09 AM (This post was last modified: 04-03-2012 01:14 AM by kingschosen.)
RE: Can anyone explain how this wasn't God?
(04-03-2012 12:56 AM)bjgodsimage Wrote:  man if i was to blunt when i asked you that im sorry, i guess i was, where exactly do you get your logic or pov of scriptures from? honestly?

The Bible. Paul and Jesus are very open about the elect. Moreover, I used the NASB and YLT for studying (as they are most accurate modern translations). I also studying the Greek and Hebrew text to make sure I'm reading the correct word. I then read the surrounding verses to gather the context. I also research the history and the audience (which is very important).

I read and studying what other theologians have taught and said.

Quote:and read that deutoronomy 30:19 man, it has free will written all over it

Context. God is addressing the Jews (chosen). He promises restoration to them and is commanding repentance. It has nothing to do with free will. He is saying that repentance will be life.

The Hebrew word here is "chosen". The verse is narrating what God is doing and has done. He has chosen life for the Jews so that they may live. The context of the verse is what God has done.
(04-03-2012 12:56 AM)bjgodsimage Wrote:  man like i said, where do you get your logic for the scripture, the clearly says one thing, but you twist it to match your belief, people always try to dig into scripture trying to find what it means, when really its simple, you try to dig a big hole when it starts with a little shovel

Lost in translation is a real thing. I see you started quoting from the KJV which is better than the NLT; however, the KJV was translated from the Greek and Hebrew to Latin Vulgate into Old English (2 degrees of separation). The NASB and YLT are translated into English from the Greek and Hebrew (1 degree of separation).

However, even the NASB and YLT are flawed, this is why you need 0 degrees of separation and need to read what the Greek and Hebrew actually say.

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04-03-2012, 01:21 AM
RE: Can anyone explain how this wasn't God?
(04-03-2012 01:09 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(04-03-2012 12:56 AM)bjgodsimage Wrote:  man if i was to blunt when i asked you that im sorry, i guess i was, where exactly do you get your logic or pov of scriptures from? honestly?

The Bible. Paul and Jesus are very open about the elect. Moreover, I used the NASB and YLT for studying (as they are most accurate modern translations). I also studying the Greek and Hebrew text to make sure I'm reading the correct word. I then read the surrounding verses to gather the context. I also research the history and the audience (which is very important).

I read and studying what other theologians have taught and said.

Quote:and read that deutoronomy 30:19 man, it has free will written all over it

Context. God is addressing the Jews (chosen). He promises restoration to them and is commanding repentance. It has nothing to do with free will. He is saying that repentance will be life.

The Hebrew word here is "chosen". The verse is narrating what God is doing and has done. He has chosen life for the Jews so that they may live. The context of the verse is what God has done.
(04-03-2012 12:56 AM)bjgodsimage Wrote:  man like i said, where do you get your logic for the scripture, the clearly says one thing, but you twist it to match your belief, people always try to dig into scripture trying to find what it means, when really its simple, you try to dig a big hole when it starts with a little shovel

Lost in translation is a real thing. I see you started quoting from the KJV which is better than the NLT; however, the KJV was translated from the Greek and Hebrew to Latin Vulgate into Old English (2 degrees of separation). The NASB and YLT are translated into English from the Greek and Hebrew (1 degree of separation).

However, even the NASB and YLT are flawed, this is why you need 0 degrees of separation and need to read what the Greek and Hebrew actually say.

if there are only the chosen, then why do "the chosen" believe christ came for all? and why do we have such a desire to save souls? And why do god want us to love one another? Because its the love that we walk in that draw people to god.. and do you believe that you are "chosen"?
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04-03-2012, 01:35 AM
RE: Can anyone explain how this wasn't God?
(04-03-2012 01:21 AM)bjgodsimage Wrote:  if there are only the chosen, then why do "the chosen" believe christ came for all?

Because it doesn't affect salvation.

Arminians believe that they call on the name of Christ first and accept Him.

Calvinists believe that God regenerates your heart and then you call upon the name of Christ and profess Him.

To a Calvinist, an Arminian is a believer that doesn't realize God compelled him to believe.

Quote:and why do we have such a desire to save souls? And why do god want us to love one another? Because its the love that we walk in that draw people to god..

God is the author of our desires. He gives us all of them. We proselytize because this is the chosen medium that God chooses to start regenerations. God places the desire into us to share Him; and through that sharing, someone is regenerated.

God uses many different catalyst of regenerations including proselytizing.

Quote:and do you believe that you are "chosen"?

I do. God has given me the desire for Him.

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