Can anyone explain how this wasn't God?
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05-05-2015, 06:44 AM
RE: Can anyone explain how this wasn't God?
(04-05-2015 11:41 PM)morondog Wrote:  And they *trust* what he's saying as not being bullshit. Why? Because they can *fact check* it.

That’s assuming that I understood the basic process and ideas behind it, the physics. If I hard time time making sense of it, it may all appear to me like garbled up nonsense, then I couldn’t really fact check it now could I? Because it would be like making sense of vomit.

What if I when they tell me these explanations all I hear is what sounds like garbled up non-sense, I come to the conclusion that it is exactly that. Of course they’ll all claim that I just don’t understand, that it truly does make sense, and it’s all pieced together accurately, even though I am unable to make sense of it.

Quote:There's no way to check if what he's saying is sound or not because it's *all* opinion. So you either go find some scripture on your own and pray for guidance - another dodgy method for determining truth - or you ask your pastor his *opinion* - or you find some other method... but ja, it's just... not ideal.

Judging that I’m usually involved in arguments and debates with other believers, I don’t find this to really be the case at all. If they hold a certain view to be true, it's not hard to ask them why they do, tracing their reasons, and inputs that led them to draw these conclusions. If it doesn’t make sense or add up, then perhaps I’ll just conclude that it’s all garbled up non-sense.

Christians argue a variety of things, often times it’s about the particular meanings on a passage, or verse, in light of the context, scriptural, cultural, historical, etc….. If I don’t agree with someone understanding, I’m able to argue why, what aspects that particular individual is missing, or not taking into account, etc…

Other times it’s about history, the dispositions of early believers, others time it’s about morality, what is the right and wrong thing to do, often times it’s relational, how do we relate to others and the world around us, what does it mean to believe.

There are some difference though when speaking of religion and science. Religion is all encompassing, entails one’s own personal identify, and worldview, in which political views, moral views, are all subservient too. While science is only one piece of a puzzle, a persons worldview, moral and philosophical positions can be entirely separate things all together.

In some sense you’re comparing apples to oranges, unless we’re elevating science beyond methodology, into the ontological domain. It’s the difference between science is a tool that assists in deriving the best naturalistic explanations we can come with, and science reveals what is true. Not all scientist are ontological naturalist, on this question they seem equally divided.
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05-05-2015, 06:51 AM
RE: Can anyone explain how this wasn't God?
(04-05-2015 08:26 PM)Chas Wrote:  And you still have not responded to my questions:

"Have you even read Breaking the Spell? Do you even understand Dennett's point?"

No, I haven't read it, I've only read and seen Dennett's subsequent interviews, and articles, but have never read Breaking the Spell.

Quote:And Dennett is not speaking outside his area of expertise in that book - he's a philosopher. So there's that.

What is a philosopher's expertise? Is it the same as that of a cultural anthropologist, sociologist, is it in areas of foreign politics? On the origins and nature of religion?
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05-05-2015, 07:11 AM
RE: Can anyone explain how this wasn't God?
(05-05-2015 06:44 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(04-05-2015 11:41 PM)morondog Wrote:  And they *trust* what he's saying as not being bullshit. Why? Because they can *fact check* it.

That’s assuming that I understood the basic process and ideas behind it, the physics. If I hard time time making sense of it, it may all appear to me like garbled up nonsense, then I couldn’t really fact check it now could I? Because it would be like making sense of vomit.

What if I when they tell me these explanations all I hear is what sounds like garbled up non-sense, I come to the conclusion that it is exactly that. Of course they’ll all claim that I just don’t understand, that it truly does make sense, and it’s all pieced together accurately, even though I am unable to make sense of it.

Your ignorance is not any kind of argument. Your conclusion that it is nonsense is unwarranted and unsupportable.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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05-05-2015, 07:25 AM
RE: Can anyone explain how this wasn't God?
(02-05-2015 09:02 PM)Shinosky Wrote:  I don't expect you to have any consideration for anything I say. That's your choice. I don't control you. You have free will. And with my free will I choose to not take into consideration anyone had, has, or has to say that goes against the creator. God wins. He remains undefeated. Always and forever.

Is it really a choice for you? God has presented itself to you, right? There is no question for you

I guess you can still choose not to follow something that has shown its existed.

Can you see the difference? Why do you think you're special?
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05-05-2015, 07:29 AM
RE: Can anyone explain how this wasn't God?
(05-05-2015 07:11 AM)Chas Wrote:  Your ignorance is not any kind of argument. Your conclusion that it is nonsense is unwarranted and unsupportable.

How would I tell the difference between unwarranted and warranted nonsense? What should I do, when it appears as nonsense to me, should I just trust the professionals here?
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05-05-2015, 07:46 AM
RE: Can anyone explain how this wasn't God?
(05-05-2015 07:29 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(05-05-2015 07:11 AM)Chas Wrote:  Your ignorance is not any kind of argument. Your conclusion that it is nonsense is unwarranted and unsupportable.

How would I tell the difference between unwarranted and warranted nonsense? What should I do, when it appears as nonsense to me, should I just trust the professionals here?

WTF are you saying here? You cast doubt on any scientific concept based on how well you understand it? Why so paranoid about this and not the doctor who prescribes medication for a sinus infection, or the mechanic that replaced your brakes? Do you analyze the pills to check the identity and quantity of the active ingredients? Do you measure the thickness of the brake pads and pressure in the brake lines after the work is done on your car?

Nice try but you sound ridiculous. You are not the end all on what is right, or correct, or sensible you dodgy self righteous weasel. Again, we trust scientists because they all have tested and fact checked the conclusions, and formed a consensus as to the validity of the results. I see that you are suffering from the same mental condition (belief perseverance) that our other TTA theists have been inflicted with - get help please.

“Truth does not demand belief. Scientists do not join hands every Sunday, singing, yes, gravity is real! I will have faith! I will be strong! I believe in my heart that what goes up, up, up, must come down, down, down. Amen! If they did, we would think they were pretty insecure about it.”
— Dan Barker —
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05-05-2015, 07:50 AM
RE: Can anyone explain how this wasn't God?
(05-05-2015 07:29 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(05-05-2015 07:11 AM)Chas Wrote:  Your ignorance is not any kind of argument. Your conclusion that it is nonsense is unwarranted and unsupportable.

How would I tell the difference between unwarranted and warranted nonsense? What should I do, when it appears as nonsense to me, should I just trust the professionals here?

It also appears to me that you conflate religious teachers/preachers and scientific teachers/experts in the same role. That is a sad problem you have there, of course you have difficulty trusting anything or anybody.

“Truth does not demand belief. Scientists do not join hands every Sunday, singing, yes, gravity is real! I will have faith! I will be strong! I believe in my heart that what goes up, up, up, must come down, down, down. Amen! If they did, we would think they were pretty insecure about it.”
— Dan Barker —
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05-05-2015, 07:51 AM
RE: Can anyone explain how this wasn't God?
(05-05-2015 07:46 AM)Timber1025 Wrote:  WTF are you saying here? You cast doubt on any scientific concept based on how well you understand it? Why so paranoid about this and not the doctor who prescribes medication for a sinus infection, or the mechanic that replaced your brakes? Do you analyze the pills to check the identity and quantity of the active ingredients? Do you measure the thickness of the brake pads and pressure in the brake lines after the work is done on your car?

If I see my doctor as trustworthy, then I'll likely just trust him when he prescribes me a medication, even though I don't particularly know how it works. If I thought he might be pressured by his locals drugs reps, then perhaps his trust might be a bit more questionable.

So your answer to the question, is that when I can't make sense of it, I should just trust the professional here, take the scientist at his word, the way I might take my doctor at his word?
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05-05-2015, 07:57 AM
RE: Can anyone explain how this wasn't God?
(05-05-2015 07:51 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(05-05-2015 07:46 AM)Timber1025 Wrote:  WTF are you saying here? You cast doubt on any scientific concept based on how well you understand it? Why so paranoid about this and not the doctor who prescribes medication for a sinus infection, or the mechanic that replaced your brakes? Do you analyze the pills to check the identity and quantity of the active ingredients? Do you measure the thickness of the brake pads and pressure in the brake lines after the work is done on your car?

If I see my doctor as trustworthy, then I'll likely just trust him when he prescribes me a medication, even though I don't particularly know how it works. If I thought he might be pressured by his locals drugs reps, then perhaps his trust might be a bit more questionable.

So your answer to the question, is that when I can't make sense of it, I should just trust the professional here, take the scientist at his word, the way I might take my doctor at his word?

No, you should work harder at making sense of it.

But your not being able to make sense of it does not make it false.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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05-05-2015, 08:21 AM
RE: Can anyone explain how this wasn't God?
(05-05-2015 07:57 AM)Chas Wrote:  No, you should work harder at making sense of it.

But that would require some sort of belief that it does in fact make sense beyond the non-sense that I perceive, that I don't perceive the subsequent explanations as courtier replies.

So what happens when attempts to make sense of it results in a series of dead ends for me, and tests the patience of those I'm looking to for clarification?

Quote:But your not being able to make sense of it does not make it false.

Maybe, but me not being able to make sense of it, doesn't make it true either. In fact the truth or falsity of it may be beyond my reach to confirm or deny.
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