Can anyone explain how this wasn't God?
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05-05-2015, 08:23 AM
RE: Can anyone explain how this wasn't God?
(05-05-2015 07:51 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(05-05-2015 07:46 AM)Timber1025 Wrote:  WTF are you saying here? You cast doubt on any scientific concept based on how well you understand it? Why so paranoid about this and not the doctor who prescribes medication for a sinus infection, or the mechanic that replaced your brakes? Do you analyze the pills to check the identity and quantity of the active ingredients? Do you measure the thickness of the brake pads and pressure in the brake lines after the work is done on your car?

If I see my doctor as trustworthy, then I'll likely just trust him when he prescribes me a medication, even though I don't particularly know how it works. If I thought he might be pressured by his locals drugs reps, then perhaps his trust might be a bit more questionable.

So your answer to the question, is that when I can't make sense of it, I should just trust the professional here, take the scientist at his word, the way I might take my doctor at his word?

You should evaluate yourself and others in a judgement that acknowledges how you're going to be biased already in these scenarios. Be aware of just how often you've been wrong, mislead, fooled, lied to, corrected, informed, and just accidentally right in various times. Be aware that not knowing is as strong and important an answer in finding out better answers as thinking you already could know. And hopefully have enough of an education to be aware of as many styles of how to think through problems to be able to grasp the ideas that you agree or don't agree with upon evidence or information from outside sources.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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05-05-2015, 09:10 AM
RE: Can anyone explain how this wasn't God?
I do have a question though:

If scientist are the best source for learning about science, if they are the ones with the most intimate knowledge of their areas of expertise, who is the best source to turn to when it comes to understanding religion?

Philosophers like Dennett? Theologians? Religious Scholars (who are often religious themselves), anthropologist? Historians? Biologist? Evolutionary Psychologist? Who's likely to be the most insightful here?
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05-05-2015, 09:19 AM
RE: Can anyone explain how this wasn't God?
(05-05-2015 09:10 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  I do have a question though:

If scientist are the best source for learning about science, if they are the ones with the most intimate knowledge of their areas of expertise, who is the best source to turn to when it comes to understanding religion?

Philosophers like Dennett? Theologians? Religious Scholars (who are often religious themselves), anthropologist? Historians? Biologist? Evolutionary Psychologist? Who's likely to be the most insightful here?

That's a very broad distinction because it depends on what you want. Just like for science, you depend on specifics in certain cases.

For grasping what religions are saying or trying to say, I'd say religious scholars.. and there are plenty of them who aren't religious, or at least not in a way many people in pews are as they see it.

But if by "understanding religion" you mean understanding it on a emotional level, I wouldn't want to go to them. If you mean, understanding it on a, why does it exist? I'd through the evolutionary psychologists in the mix.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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05-05-2015, 10:12 AM
RE: Can anyone explain how this wasn't God?
(05-05-2015 08:21 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(05-05-2015 07:57 AM)Chas Wrote:  No, you should work harder at making sense of it.

But that would require some sort of belief that it does in fact make sense beyond the non-sense that I perceive, that I don't perceive the subsequent explanations as courtier replies.

So what happens when attempts to make sense of it results in a series of dead ends for me, and tests the patience of those I'm looking to for clarification?

Quote:But your not being able to make sense of it does not make it false.

Maybe, but me not being able to make sense of it, doesn't make it true either. In fact the truth or falsity of it may be beyond my reach to confirm or deny.

Except you said this:
(05-05-2015 06:44 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  <snip>
What if I when they tell me these explanations all I hear is what sounds like garbled up non-sense, I come to the conclusion that it is exactly that. Of course they’ll all claim that I just don’t understand, that it truly does make sense, and it’s all pieced together accurately, even though I am unable to make sense of it.
<snip>
Judging that I’m usually involved in arguments and debates with other believers, I don’t find this to really be the case at all. If they hold a certain view to be true, it's not hard to ask them why they do, tracing their reasons, and inputs that led them to draw these conclusions. If it doesn’t make sense or add up, then perhaps I’ll just conclude that it’s all garbled up non-sense.

So which is it? Consider

Seriously, dude, you mostly talk out your ass.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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05-05-2015, 10:17 AM
RE: Can anyone explain how this wasn't God?
(05-05-2015 09:19 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  For grasping what religions are saying or trying to say, I'd say religious scholars.. and there are plenty of them who aren't religious, or at least not in a way many people in pews are as they see it. [...]

If you mean, understanding it on a, why does it exist? I'd through the evolutionary psychologists in the mix.

Wouldn't you say the first and second questions are related. In order to know why they exist, one would have to know what they are saying or trying to say?

If an evolutionary psychologist didn't really understand what religious say or try to say, the endeavor is going to result in false conclusion to begin with.

Let's consider christianity for a minute, which religious scholars do you have in mind here? Whom do you consider to be among the most insightful and informative here?
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05-05-2015, 10:20 AM
RE: Can anyone explain how this wasn't God?
How is one a "hardcore atheist"? *rolls eyes*
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05-05-2015, 11:02 AM
RE: Can anyone explain how this wasn't God?
(05-05-2015 10:17 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(05-05-2015 09:19 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  For grasping what religions are saying or trying to say, I'd say religious scholars.. and there are plenty of them who aren't religious, or at least not in a way many people in pews are as they see it. [...]

If you mean, understanding it on a, why does it exist? I'd through the evolutionary psychologists in the mix.

Wouldn't you say the first and second questions are related. In order to know why they exist, one would have to know what they are saying or trying to say?

If an evolutionary psychologist didn't really understand what religious say or try to say, the endeavor is going to result in false conclusion to begin with.

Let's consider christianity for a minute, which religious scholars do you have in mind here? Whom do you consider to be among the most insightful and informative here?

Not by what I mean when I'm saying.. "what religions are trying to say" by which I mean, as in this christian interpretation, Do this process to please God. Knowing each religion's specifics is by far not a requirement to understanding the study of why religion impacts humanity on a broader scale.

You don't need to know all the individual details of something to grasp large scale concepts of something. You can study both or one.

Years ago I know I saw many Bart Ehrman documents & lectures on videos. Oh and "Is Richard Carrier Your Expert" was a thread here, so I guess him though despite a few posts on this forum, I've never heard of him. And is Mark Fulton not a Religious or Christianity scholar? he pretty much seems to be based on what would seem to be good criteria.

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05-05-2015, 11:24 AM
RE: Can anyone explain how this wasn't God?
(05-05-2015 11:02 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  [quote]Not by what I mean when I'm saying.. "what religions are trying to say" by which I mean, as in this christian interpretation, Do this process to please God. Knowing each religion's specifics is by far not a requirement to understanding the study of why religion impacts humanity on a broader scale.

You don't need to know all the individual details of something to grasp large scale concepts of something. You can study both or one.

Ah, you need a depth of understanding. Let’s consider Judeo-Christianity, in order to understand why these ancient communities believed what they did, what led them to these beliefs, how they viewed them, one would have to know the the sort of questions their texts were attempting to answer, what sort of concerns are they in regards to, the conditions that gave rise to them, the distinction between their world and ours.

A common atheists trope, and an idiotic one, that often gets passed from time to time, is that religions arose to fill precursors to scientific curiosities. That the ancient Hebrews wanted to know how they came about, so someone invented a Genesis creation myth, to fill this void, until later scientific discoveries would take their place. Such an explanation presupposes their concerns, what the text was attempting to convey, the basic meaning and contemplation they were trying to share. It’s based on a view of what these stories were about. If this view is crude and inaccurate or shallow, everything built upon it crumbles with it.

If you can’t make sense of religious text, you’re going to have a hard time making sense of religion, because pretty much all we know about these ancient religions, what they believed, why they believed what they did is to be derived from their scriptures. And it's the past that often illuminates our present.
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05-05-2015, 12:40 PM
RE: Can anyone explain how this wasn't God?
(05-05-2015 11:24 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(05-05-2015 11:02 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  
Quote:Not by what I mean when I'm saying.. "what religions are trying to say" by which I mean, as in this christian interpretation, Do this process to please God. Knowing each religion's specifics is by far not a requirement to understanding the study of why religion impacts humanity on a broader scale.

You don't need to know all the individual details of something to grasp large scale concepts of something. You can study both or one.

Ah, you need a depth of understanding. Let’s consider Judeo-Christianity, in order to understand why these ancient communities believed what they did, what led them to these beliefs, how they viewed them, one would have to know the the sort of questions their texts were attempting to answer, what sort of concerns are they in regards to, the conditions that gave rise to them, the distinction between their world and ours.

A common atheists trope, and an idiotic one, that often gets passed from time to time, is that religions arose to fill precursors to scientific curiosities. That the ancient Hebrews wanted to know how they came about, so someone invented a Genesis creation myth, to fill this void, until later scientific discoveries would take their place. Such an explanation presupposes their concerns, what the text was attempting to convey, the basic meaning and contemplation they were trying to share. It’s based on a view of what these stories were about. If this view is crude and inaccurate or shallow, everything built upon it crumbles with it.

If you can’t make sense of religious text, you’re going to have a hard time making sense of religion, because pretty much all we know about these ancient religions, what they believed, why they believed what they did is to be derived from their scriptures. And it's the past that often illuminates our present.
To say... "lets consider Juedo-Christianity" is to have moved way away from that and you're in the realm already of what more likely scholars or specific Judeo-Christian studies would be examining. You're getting ahead of a evolutionary psychologist realm in terms of humanities timeline.

You're misrepresenting where these distinctions would be. Religion, isn't Christianity.. it's the idea of belief structures themselves that they would be studying. Yes, the Work of a person studying that realm would be questioning whether or not that middle paragraph of yours is information that holds true. And they wouldn't make it based on those specifics, but a LARGER SCALE.

If you think of something like Juedism as the base, of course you think it's flawed. Because what you're proclaiming the base is, is flawed. And to state all we know is based on their scriptures is an insult to millions of hours of archaeological research or just more mental slipping by you.

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05-05-2015, 07:54 PM (This post was last modified: 05-05-2015 08:11 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Can anyone explain how this wasn't God?
(05-05-2015 10:12 AM)Chas Wrote:  Seriously, dude, you mostly talk out your ass.

Dude just can't deal with the fact he gonna die. Can't comprehend how someone as great and important and as all powerful as he could just disappear. Just cease to be. ... fuckin' pussy deserves to live forever. That is Hell.

#sigh
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