Can god create a contradiction?
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30-01-2012, 03:26 PM (This post was last modified: 30-01-2012 03:31 PM by Zat.)
Can god create a contradiction?
The human mind is wired in such a way that we can not conceive of a possible contradiction.

The basic rules of logic are:

The Law of Identity
: Everything is what it is (and cannot, at the same time, be something else).

The Law of Excluded Middle
: Every statement (exactly as it is stated) is either true or false.

The Law of Non-Contradiction: No statement may be simultaneously true and False

All three of these laws state that contradictions can not exist in our Universe. Our hardwired brains just can not conceive of a situation where any one of these rules could be violated.

So, how could some of us believe in an entity who is supposed to be both omnipotent and omniscient (total contradiction)?

Or, put it another way: can an omnipotent god create such a heavy stone that even he can not lift up?

I have never had a satisfactory answer yet from believers.

It seems to me that you have two choices:

- Either you believe in the biblical god and give up your logical mind
- or you start seriously doubting the possibility of a christian god.
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30-01-2012, 03:31 PM
RE: Can god create a contradiction?
Merciful and Just are another contradiction
Since mercy is the suspension of punishment/justice.
And hell as a concept is infinitely unjust

As for things contradicting themselves, i dunno much but i think
scientists are learning more about it with all the Quantum stuff
where particles seem to pop in and out of existence or be in two places at once
i dunno much about the Quantum stuff so feel free to correct me.

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30-01-2012, 03:34 PM
RE: Can god create a contradiction?
(30-01-2012 03:26 PM)Zat Wrote:  So, how could some of us believe in an entity who is supposed to be both omnipotent and omniscient (total contradiction)?

Or, put it another way: can god create such a heavy stone that even he can not lift up?

I have never had a satisfactory answer yet from believers.

It seems to me that you have two choices:

- Either you believe in the biblical god and give up your logical mind
- or you start seriously doubting the possibility of a christian god.

I have answered this question many times.

Now, the major point is what you asked that I marked in red.

To be omnipotent is to be all powerful. To be all powerful means that a contradiction cannot exist. The very meaning of the word prevents such contradictions.

It's not that God cannot create a rock that He cannot lift, it's that His omnipotence creates a situation that cannot exist. Omnipotence is a type of infinity. The question is asking for an answer to the end of infinity. Since there is no end to infinity, that question simply cannot exist.

Limited natures and unlimited natures cannot be compared, as they are two separate animals.

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30-01-2012, 03:45 PM
RE: Can god create a contradiction?
I have heard similar arguments, KC, in communist Hungary during "Scientific Communism" classes.

We were told that the one-party system was justified because EVERYTHING was owned by the people, so no one should be allowed to vote against the people.

Science fiction writers also dealt with this problem when they tried to explain time travel contradictions (like going back in time and killing your own father) -- they just assumed that, since contradiction could not exist, nature would prevent you from doing it, so it could never happen.

You seem to be saying the same: god says: "I have just outlawed contradictions, so they can not exist, therefore I am omnipotent because the question never comes up whether I could or could not".

A very convenient explanation from god's perspective.

Reminds me of the "Little Prince" by Antoine de Saint-Exupéry when the Little Prince asked the king for a sunset -- he was told by the king that he could do it any time but, in his infinite wisdom and reasonableness, he would have to wait for the conditions to be right, like around 6PM.
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30-01-2012, 03:57 PM
RE: Can god create a contradiction?
(30-01-2012 03:45 PM)Zat Wrote:  I have heard similar arguments, KC, in communist Hungary during "Scientific Communism" classes.

We were told that the one-party system was justified because EVERYTHING was owned by the people, so no one should be allowed to vote against the people.

Science fiction writers also dealt with this problem when they tried to explain time travel contradictions (like going back in time and killing your own father) -- they just assumed that, since contradiction could not exist, nature would prevent you from doing it, so it could never happen.

You seem to be saying the same: god says: "I have just outlawed contradictions, so they can not exist, therefore I am omnipotent because the question never comes up whether I could or could not".

A very convenient explanation from god's perspective.

Reminds me of the "Little Prince" by Antoine de Saint-Exupéry when the Little Prince asked the king for a sunset -- he was told by the king that he could do it any time but, in his infinite wisdom and reasonableness, he would have to wait for the conditions to be right, like around 6PM.

It's not only God... it's also denotatively correct. An infinite cannot have an end. Anything that hypothetically limits an infinite simply cannot be or else the infinite isn't infinite.

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30-01-2012, 04:06 PM (This post was last modified: 30-01-2012 04:09 PM by Zat.)
RE: Can god create a contradiction?
(30-01-2012 03:57 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  It's not only God... it's also denotatively correct. An infinite cannot have an end. Anything that hypothetically limits an infinite simply cannot be or else the infinite isn't infinite.

KC, this tortured logic reminds me of Galileo, trying to prove that only perfect circles were allowed for heavenly objects.

Quoting from my book:

It really surprised me when I first learned about Galileo’s suggestion that the natural motion of the planets was in perfect circles. Up to that point I had assumed that Galileo discovered the principle of inertia, as it is commonly stated in most Physics textbooks. And while it is true that Galileo stated a principle of inertia in his later work “On Two Sciences” as valid on Earth, apparently he did not think this principle applied to heavenly bodies, as he very clearly described it in his “Dialogue” that he had published just a few years earlier. In the “Dialogue of two World Systems” Salviati, representing Galileo’s convictions, reasons:

Quote:“SALV. This principle being established then, it may be immediately concluded that if all integral bodies in the world are by nature movable, it is impossible that their motions should be might, or anything else but circular; and the reason is very plain and obvious. For whatever moves straight changes place and, continuing to move, goes ever farther from its starting point and from every place through which it successively passes. If that were the motion which naturally suited it, then at the beginning it was not in its proper place. So then the parts of the world were not disposed in perfect order. But we are assuming them to [be] perfectly in order; and in that case, it is impossible that it should be their nature to change place, and consequently to move in a straight line.”

Please observe how Galileo forgets about his stated principle, according to which “Nature nothing careth whether her abstruse reasons and methods of operating be or be not exposed to the capacity of men” – he is theorizing in the true Aristotelian style, without any experimental observation whatsoever. He is making assumptions which are undefined and unwarranted.

He goes on in similar vein:

Quote:“Besides, straight motion being by nature infinite (because a straight line is infinite and indeterminate), it is impossible that anything should have by nature the principle of moving in a straight line; or, in other words, toward a place where it is impossible to arrive, there being no finite end. For nature, as Aristotle well says himself, never undertakes to do that which cannot be done, nor endeavours to move whither it is impossible to arrive. [cf Copernicus, De Revolutionibus, Book I, chapter 8]”

Now he appeals to Aristotle’s authority that he ridiculed on other occasions. No, this definitely is not the Galileo we learned about in high school. It appears as if his genius worked unhindered as long as he studied phenomena on Earth, but when it came to the heavens, he reverted to superstitious speculation.
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30-01-2012, 04:07 PM
RE: Can god create a contradiction?
So god cant violate the contradictions?
not really omnipotent then is he?

"Yeah, good idea. Make them buy your invisible apple. Insist that they do. Market it properly and don't stop until they pay for it." -Malleus
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30-01-2012, 04:08 PM (This post was last modified: 30-01-2012 04:09 PM by kingschosen.)
RE: Can god create a contradiction?
(30-01-2012 04:07 PM)Jackrabbit Wrote:  So god cant violate the contradictions?
not really omnipotent then is he?

That's not what I'm saying. It's not a contradiction. It's nothing. It simply cannot be. Limits to infinity cannot exist.
(30-01-2012 04:06 PM)Zat Wrote:  
(30-01-2012 03:57 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  It's not only God... it's also denotatively correct. An infinite cannot have an end. Anything that hypothetically limits an infinite simply cannot be or else the infinite isn't infinite.

KC, this tortured logic reminds me of Galileo, trying to prove that only perfect circles were allowed for heavenly objects.

Quoting from my book:

. It really surprised me when I first learned about Galileo’s suggestion that the natural motion of the planets was in perfect circles. Up to that point I had assumed that Galileo discovered the principle of inertia, as it is commonly stated in most Physics textbooks. And while it is true that Galileo stated a principle of inertia in his later work “On Two Sciences” as valid on Earth, apparently he did not think this principle applied to heavenly bodies, as he very clearly described it in his “Dialogue” that he had published just a few years earlier. In the “Dialogue of two World Systems” Salviati, representing Galileo’s convictions, reasons:

Quote:“SALV. This principle being established then, it may be immediately concluded that if all integral bodies in the world are by nature movable, it is impossible that their motions should be might, or anything else but circular; and the reason is very plain and obvious. For whatever moves straight changes place and, continuing to move, goes ever farther from its starting point and from every place through which it successively passes. If that were the motion which naturally suited it, then at the beginning it was not in its proper place. So then the parts of the world were not disposed in perfect order. But we are assuming them to [be] perfectly in order; and in that case, it is impossible that it should be their nature to change place, and consequently to move in a straight line.”

Please observe how Galileo forgets about his stated principle, according to which “Nature nothing careth whether her abstruse reasons and methods of operating be or be not exposed to the capacity of men” – he is theorizing in the true Aristotelian style, without any experimental observation whatsoever. He is making assumptions which are undefined and unwarranted.

He goes on in similar vein:

Quote:“Besides, straight motion being by nature infinite (because a straight line is infinite and indeterminate), it is impossible that anything should have by nature the principle of moving in a straight line; or, in other words, toward a place where it is impossible to arrive, there being no finite end. For nature, as Aristotle well says himself, never undertakes to do that which cannot be done, nor endeavours to move whither it is impossible to arrive. [cf Copernicus, De Revolutionibus, Book I, chapter 8]”

Now he appeals to Aristotle’s authority that he ridiculed on other occasions. No, this definitely is not the Galileo we learned about in high school. It appears as if his genius worked unhindered as long as he studied phenomena on Earth, but when it came to the heavens, he reverted to superstitious speculation.

Yeah, this kind of stuff will make your head explode. Some of this stuff is really difficult to wrap your mind around.

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30-01-2012, 04:17 PM
RE: Can god create a contradiction?
(30-01-2012 04:08 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  Yeah, this kind of stuff will make your head explode. Some of this stuff is really difficult to wrap your mind around.

Is that it?

Difficult to wrap my mind around?

I have wrapped my mind around Einstein's General Theory of Relativity, math and all (successfully) before, never mind Quantum Field Theory.

I guess some things are just not worth trying to wrap your mind around because they are total nonsense.

I have read it somewhere: "If you can't explain it in a clear, convincing way, you don't understand it yourself".

This seems to be the case here, I am sorry to say. Sad
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30-01-2012, 04:20 PM
RE: Can god create a contradiction?
(30-01-2012 04:17 PM)Zat Wrote:  
(30-01-2012 04:08 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  Yeah, this kind of stuff will make your head explode. Some of this stuff is really difficult to wrap your mind around.

Is that it?

Difficult to wrap my mind around?

I have wrapped my mind around Einstein's General Theory of Relativity, math and all (successfully) before, never mind Quantum Field Theory.

I guess some things are just not worth trying to wrap your mind around because they are total nonsense.

I have read it somewhere: "If you can't explain it in a clear, convincing way, you don't understand it yourself".

This seems to be the case here, I am sorry to say. Sad

Not you as in you, Zat. I just meant in general. I wasn't in anyway demeaning your mental prowess. This is why "you" is such a useless word in English... it's so ambiguous.

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