Can god create a contradiction?
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31-01-2012, 10:13 AM
RE: Can god create a contradiction?
Hey, Zat, Ben and King.

I gotta disagree with all of you. We humans can't break the rules of logic or create paradoxes because we're bound by very logical and paradox proof laws. Our ability to affect the universe is limited to that which is possible. It's impossible for you or I to make a round square or white blackness. This we all know to be true.

But if God is all powerful, part of being all powerful means that you can do the impossible. So God (theoretically) wouldn't be bound by logic or anything else for that matter.

I think what's being done here is that we're using our understanding of limitation in a thought experiment about an all powerful being because we can't truly conceive what it would mean to be all powerful. I can't even begin to conceive what a round square is like, but I don't have to; I'm not all powerful. But the moment you envision an all powerful being, then the answer to any "can he" question is necessarily "yes he can."

All of this is to say that to suggest that someone is not all powerful because there are things that can't be done is itself illogical.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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31-01-2012, 10:13 AM
RE: Can god create a contradiction?
How can the concept of a contradiction even exist if there is no contradiction?

How can I understand a contradiction taking place easier than a contradiction not happening or existing?

Is this like saying maybe a circle IS a square in some realities? We are too two dimensional and God is not?
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31-01-2012, 10:25 AM
RE: Can god create a contradiction?
(31-01-2012 10:13 AM)Ghost Wrote:  Hey, Zat, Ben and King.

I gotta disagree with all of you. We humans can't break the rules of logic or create paradoxes because we're bound by very logical and paradox proof laws. Our ability to affect the universe is limited to that which is possible. It's impossible for you or I to make a round square or white blackness. This we all know to be true.

But if God is all powerful, part of being all powerful means that you can do the impossible. So God (theoretically) wouldn't be bound by logic or anything else for that matter.

I think what's being done here is that we're using our understanding of limitation in a thought experiment about an all powerful being because we can't truly conceive what it would mean to be all powerful. I can't even begin to conceive what a round square is like, but I don't have to; I'm not all powerful. But the moment you envision an all powerful being, then the answer to any "can he" question is necessarily "yes he can."

All of this is to say that to suggest that someone is not all powerful because there are things that can't be done is itself illogical.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt

Matt, I know man... I agree with this concept, but it is a purely theological concept; based on the thought that God is infinite.

If I said, "We're aren't God. There is no way that we as humans can even start to understand His understanding" instead of offering a framed logical argument, the Atheist Armada would be after me and ready to hang me from the gallows.

Yes, our logic cannot understand God; however, if we are going to use our logic to try and understand God, then we are bound by our own logic.

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31-01-2012, 10:40 AM (This post was last modified: 31-01-2012 11:06 AM by Zat.)
RE: Can god create a contradiction?
(31-01-2012 10:13 AM)Ghost Wrote:  We humans can't break the rules of logic or create paradoxes because we're bound by very logical and paradox proof laws. Our ability to affect the universe is limited to that which is possible. It's impossible for you or I to make a round square or white blackness. This we all know to be true.

But if God is all powerful, part of being all powerful means that you can do the impossible. So God (theoretically) wouldn't be bound by logic or anything else for that matter.

Ghost, what you are saying is that we, humans, invented a thing (god) that can do the ondoable while we are trying to conceive of the inconceivable!

Isn't that just the perfectly human thing to do? Big Grin
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31-01-2012, 10:42 AM
RE: Can god create a contradiction?
Hey, King.

The Atheist Armada can lick my salty chocolate balls Cool

I don't think God is infinite. I take Boruch's point. God is beyond both infinite and finite.

I have no vested interest in proving/disproving God, so I don't care about the pre-existing canned arguments. I'm only interested in what's proven and what's logical. An all powerful being that is not all powerful is illogical.

I'm not saying we don't understand His understanding, I’m saying that we can't understand what a circular square is any more than a jellyfish can comprehend an ICBM. It's outside of the scope of our capabilities. We think in logic and rules and can't comprehend what it means to be bound by neither.

You’re right. We are bound by our own logic. And it has limits. If it doesn't allow us to understand what it means to be all powerful, then we just need to admit that. But logically speaking, if we envision a theoretical being (or truly believe in one) that is all powerful, then we have envisioned a being that can do absolutely everything. A being that can violate time, space, gravity, logic, paradox, you name it.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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31-01-2012, 11:06 AM
RE: Can god create a contradiction?
(31-01-2012 10:42 AM)Ghost Wrote:  But logically speaking, if we envision a theoretical being (or truly believe in one) that is all powerful, then we have envisioned a being that can do absolutely everything. A being that can violate time, space, gravity, logic, paradox, you name it.

... exactly as I said in my previous post! Tongue
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31-01-2012, 11:09 AM
RE: Can god create a contradiction?
I guess I have two answers then:

1) Bound by our logic - no He cannot
2) Free from our logic - the question is unanswerable as logic is needed to answer the question

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31-01-2012, 11:49 AM
RE: Can god create a contradiction?
Hey, Zat.

Cool

Hey, King.

According to our logic he must.
Free from our logic he is.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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31-01-2012, 12:35 PM
RE: Can god create a contradiction?
So god is incapable of breaking logic, does'nt sound like an all powerful god to me
and then he goes and rests after 6 days of creation, looks like somebody is starting to seem a bit
impotent Smile

"Yeah, good idea. Make them buy your invisible apple. Insist that they do. Market it properly and don't stop until they pay for it." -Malleus
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31-01-2012, 03:03 PM
RE: Can god create a contradiction?
God as most contemporary philosophers understand it cannot do anything that isn't logically possible, because the "laws of logic" are not "imposed" metaphysically on the world, but are part of the necessary constitution of all possible worlds. God only requires omnipotence with respect to contingent matters.

Unless one is a transcendental idealist about God and accepts transcendental arguments for God's existence (God "lays down" the laws of logic, which no philosopher believes anymore for the modal reasons I described above), then the challenge of God doing logically impossible things is not an automatic defeater for theism. However, it definitely restricts the scope of God, and is another chink in the armor of theism.

"There is no such thing as philosophy-free science; there is only science whose philosophical baggage is taken on board without examination."
-Daniel Dennett
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