Can someone explain the math behind this?
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09-04-2015, 03:28 PM
Can someone explain the math behind this?
I am specifically wanting to know about the mathematical possibilities of evolution. This is a quote from a genius at one of the christianforums. I can't get a straight answer from him on where he came up with these crazy numbers.

I feel like banging my head against the wall when I read this junk. Why do I even go there?

makahiya2028, post: 397871, member: 15937 Wrote:The universe consists of space-time which contains 4% matter (with small amounts of anti-matter), 23% dark matter and 73% dark energy. Matter consists of a total of 120 known elements, comprised of atoms and sub-atomic particles of vibrations. There are approximately 200 billion galaxies attached to dark matter (unknown in composition) like lights attached to a Christmas tree. Dark energy (also unknown in composition) is causing the entire universe to expand exponentially. Our galaxy consists of approximately 200 billion solar systems, each with at least one planet in orbit. The universe is a violent place with galaxies colliding and massive interstellar explosions. While the universe may appear chaotic, it is not.

All life consists of biological cells (incomparably more complex and larger in ratio than New York City) each cell with over 400 biological power plants, thousands of biological factories with biological machines with precise functions. The mathematical possibility of the evolution of one biological cell is 10(39970) to 1 . In statistical reasoning 10(50) to 1 is considered impossible. There are only 10(82) atoms in the entire universe.

All biology consists of hardware and software. DNA software contains coded digital programs incomparable more complex than the most advanced computer software. This single fact conclusively demonstrates the evidence of intelligent design (historically called the Teleological Argument). All biological existence is symbiotic with the entire universe and could not exist without the existence of everything. At the smallest level of existence is language information and is the only instant function throughout the universe.

Hebrews 11:3 Through faith we understand the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

The theories of an infinite universe with infinite big bangs and all theories of development like evolution present unsolvable equations. All laws of physics and mathematical probabilities break down at the singularity point of infinity. Without an infinite eternal creator, the question of first cause is impossible to answer. The result would be an infinite continuum of the question. What caused the cause and what caused that cause ?

The evidence is perfectly clear. The scripture of the Holy Bible has the only scientific answer. The scripture of the Holy Bible was authored by the creator of existence. The Holy Bible contains approximately 2,500 prophecies with approximately 2,000 prophecies fulfilled.
The statistical probability is 10(2000) to 1 . The total revelation of scripture is infinite.

2 Timothy 3: 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:


The only scientific explanation of existence and reality is God . [/B]

Colossians 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.


God's love is the explanation to the question of why .
[/B]
Colossians 2:2 That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ;

Ephesians 3:19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.
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09-04-2015, 03:43 PM
RE: Can someone explain the math behind this?
Not I

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09-04-2015, 03:46 PM (This post was last modified: 09-04-2015 03:50 PM by Momsurroundedbyboys.)
RE: Can someone explain the math behind this?
I'm lost at "matter consists of a total of 120 known elements".

I thought there were only 118...I guess they could have added a couple more since I was helping my kid out with chemistry class. But that was pretty recently.


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09-04-2015, 03:56 PM
RE: Can someone explain the math behind this?
(09-04-2015 03:46 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  I'm lost at "matter consisting of 120 known elements".

I thought there were only 118...I guess they could have added a couple more since I was helping my kid out with chemistry class. But that was pretty recently.

keep reading, they are apparently "comprised of atoms and sub-atomic particles of vibrations" whatever that means.

The rest looks like the typical claim that it couldn't have happened randomly mixed in with a lot of techno-babble to try to confuse the issue. He's arguing that the chances that we'd end up with the DNA we have is incredibly remote and he's right. The problem is that he's assuming that there is something special about the DNA we have. The question isn't whether our DNA is likely to evolve without intentional design but rather whether any DNA can evolve without intentional design. The answer to that appears to be almost certainly.

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09-04-2015, 03:59 PM (This post was last modified: 09-04-2015 04:08 PM by Alex K.)
RE: Can someone explain the math behind this?
Quote:The universe consists of space-time which contains 4% matter (with small amounts of anti-matter), 23% dark matter and 73% dark energy.
Correct...
Quote: Matter consists of a total of 120 known elements, comprised of atoms and sub-atomic particles of vibrations.
Yup, more or less... We'll let the vibrational blabla slide
Quote: There are approximately 200 billion galaxies attached to dark matter (unknown in composition) like lights attached to a Christmas tree.
The metaphor is a bit lacking, but sure, why not...
Quote:Dark energy (also unknown in composition) is causing the entire universe to expand exponentially.
Also true...
Quote: Our galaxy consists of approximately 200 billion solar systems, each with at least one planet in orbit.
Well, on average
Quote: The universe is a violent place with galaxies colliding and massive interstellar explosions. While the universe may appear chaotic, it is not.
Who said it was chaotic?
Quote:All life consists of biological cells (incomparably more complex and larger in ratio than New York City)
That's a stupid statement. New York City is full of life forms which are made up of cells.
Quote: each cell with over 400 biological power plants, thousands of biological factories with biological machines with precise functions.
So far so good
Quote:The mathematical possibility of the evolution of one biological cell is 10(39970) to 1 .
Aaaand here we come with the made up bullshit. Surprised it took so long
Quote: In statistical reasoning 10(50) to 1 is considered impossible.
That's also a made up number, but ok whatever, it's a very small probability
Quote: There are only 10(82) atoms in the entire universe.
Sure...
Quote:All biology consists of hardware and software. DNA software contains coded digital programs incomparable more complex than the most advanced computer software.
I'm not sure about that... it's only a few gigabytes...
Quote: This single fact conclusively demonstrates the evidence of intelligent design (historically called the Teleological Argument).
No it doesn't. Thank you for your effort, here's a cookie. Next...
Quote:All biological existence is symbiotic with the entire universe
Huh?
Quote: and could not exist without the existence of everything.
Huh!!?
Quote: At the smallest level of existence is language information and is the only instant function throughout the universe.
That's gibberish.
Quote:Hebrews 11:3 Through faith we understand the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
Cool story, bro.
Quote:The theories of an infinite universe with infinite big bangs and all theories of development like evolution present unsolvable equations.
Says who? And what does that have to do with anything?
Quote: All laws of physics and mathematical probabilities break down at the singularity point of infinity.
That's just vague mumbo jumbo. Which singularity are we talking about here, exactly?
Quote: Without an infinite eternal creator, the question of first cause is impossible to answer.
And with an infinite eternal creator, it's also impossible to answer. Because it makes no sense! Hussah!
Quote: The result would be an infinite continuum of the question. What caused the cause and what caused that cause ?
Exactly.
Quote:The evidence is perfectly clear. The scripture of the Holy Bible has the only scientific answer. The scripture of the Holy Bible was authored by the creator of existence. The Holy Bible contains approximately 2,500 prophecies with approximately 2,000 prophecies fulfilled.
And again some made up bullshit and assertions as filler.
Quote:The statistical probability is 10(2000) to 1 . The total revelation of scripture is infinite.
That's a bit like comparing appletinis with flying elephants. Dude!
My desire for a nice beer is what's infinite right now.
Quote:2 Timothy 3: 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:


The only scientific explanation of existence and reality is God . [/B]

Colossians 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.


God's love is the explanation to the question of why .
[/B]
Colossians 2:2 That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ;

Ephesians 3:19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH

Ok, so what was the question?

I think this is where this comes from: there's this stupid argument which is sometimes put forward in more sophisticated form by ID mathematicians like Michael Behe or was it Dembski where they calculate the probability of the components of a cell (or only its DNA) coming together from single atoms by random chance. The resulting number is of course absurdly small, comparable to the one of finding shakespeare's collected works in a row in your alphabet soup. Of course, that's not how the DNA of today's organisms came to be. They simply ignore evolution by natural selection completely to make their argument. It's one of the dumbest things I've seen them do.

Quantum Physics: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
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09-04-2015, 04:03 PM (This post was last modified: 09-04-2015 04:10 PM by cactus.)
RE: Can someone explain the math behind this?
Quote:...The evidence is perfectly clear. The scripture of the Holy Bible has the only scientific answer....
And now we've officially jumped the shark.

Why do these "it's too complex to have happened spontaneously" arguments always seem to conveniently leave out the mechanism of natural selection in their descriptions of evolution? If a diety is guiding the process of evolution, he's pretty damn inefficient. Either that, or he just really gets his rocks off by watching cute cuddly animals go extinct. Either way, it certainly didn't take humans billions of tries to create a functioning New York City, with 99.9% of the failed attempts being totally scrapped.

If we came from dust, then why is there still dust?
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09-04-2015, 04:04 PM
RE: Can someone explain the math behind this?
(09-04-2015 03:28 PM)KUSA Wrote:  All life consists of biological cells (incomparably more complex and larger in ratio than New York City) each cell with over 400 biological power plants, thousands of biological factories with biological machines with precise functions. The mathematical possibility of the evolution of one biological cell is 10(39970) to 1 .

Unsupported assertion.

Quote:In statistical reasoning 10(50) to 1 is considered impossible. There are only 10(82) atoms in the entire universe.

Yeah, so?

Quote:All biology consists of hardware and software.

Software? No.
The hardware/software analogy is just that: an analogy.

Quote:DNA software contains coded digital programs incomparable more complex than the most advanced computer software.

No, it doesn't. It comprises chemicals. These chemicals react and interact in chemical environments.

Quote:This single fact conclusively demonstrates the evidence of intelligent design (historically called the Teleological Argument).

No, it demonstrates chemistry and natural selection.

Quote:All biological existence is symbiotic with the entire universe and could not exist without the existence of everything.

Unsupported (and nonsensical) assertion.

Quote:At the smallest level of existence is language information and is the only instant function throughout the universe.

What is an 'instant function'?

Quote:Hebrews 11:3 blah, blah, blah

The theories of an infinite universe with infinite big bangs and all theories of development like evolution present unsolvable equations.

Do they? Citation required.

Quote:All laws of physics and mathematical probabilities break down at the singularity point of infinity.

The current mathematical descriptions are not applicable at a singularity. The 'laws' are simply the mathematical description of our current understanding.

Quote:Without an infinite eternal creator, the question of first cause is impossible to answer.

Unsupported assertion. We don't have an answer yet - you don't get to just assert "goddidit".

Quote:The result would be an infinite continuum of the question. What caused the cause and what caused that cause ?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, so you will engage in special pleading.

Quote:The evidence is perfectly clear. The scripture of the Holy Bible has the only scientific answer.

Except that no evidence has been presented. Consider

Quote:The scripture of the Holy Bible was authored by the creator of existence.

Unsupported assertion.

Quote:The Holy Bible contains approximately 2,500 prophecies with approximately 2,000 prophecies fulfilled.
The statistical probability is 10(2000) to 1 . The total revelation of scripture is infinite.

Bullshit. These 'fulfilled prophecies have been debunked repeatedly. Google is your friend.

Quote:2 Timothy 3: 16 blah, blah, blah


The only scientific explanation of existence and reality is God . [/B]

Except that's not science, so there's that.

<snip more bullshit>

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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09-04-2015, 04:05 PM
RE: Can someone explain the math behind this?
(09-04-2015 03:28 PM)KUSA Wrote:  I am specifically wanting to know about the mathematical possibilities of evolution. This is a quote from a genius at one of the christianforums. I can't get a straight answer from him on where he came up with these crazy numbers.

I feel like banging my head against the wall when I read this junk. Why do I even go there?

makahiya2028, post: 397871, member: 15937 Wrote:The universe consists of space-time which contains 4% matter (with small amounts of anti-matter), 23% dark matter and 73% dark energy. Matter consists of a total of 120 known elements, comprised of atoms and sub-atomic particles of vibrations. There are approximately 200 billion galaxies attached to dark matter (unknown in composition) like lights attached to a Christmas tree. Dark energy (also unknown in composition) is causing the entire universe to expand exponentially. Our galaxy consists of approximately 200 billion solar systems, each with at least one planet in orbit. The universe is a violent place with galaxies colliding and massive interstellar explosions. While the universe may appear chaotic, it is not.

All life consists of biological cells (incomparably more complex and larger in ratio than New York City) each cell with over 400 biological power plants, thousands of biological factories with biological machines with precise functions. The mathematical possibility of the evolution of one biological cell is 10(39970) to 1 . In statistical reasoning 10(50) to 1 is considered impossible. There are only 10(82) atoms in the entire universe.

All biology consists of hardware and software. DNA software contains coded digital programs incomparable more complex than the most advanced computer software. This single fact conclusively demonstrates the evidence of intelligent design (historically called the Teleological Argument). All biological existence is symbiotic with the entire universe and could not exist without the existence of everything. At the smallest level of existence is language information and is the only instant function throughout the universe.

Hebrews 11:3 Through faith we understand the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

The theories of an infinite universe with infinite big bangs and all theories of development like evolution present unsolvable equations. All laws of physics and mathematical probabilities break down at the singularity point of infinity. Without an infinite eternal creator, the question of first cause is impossible to answer. The result would be an infinite continuum of the question. What caused the cause and what caused that cause ?

The evidence is perfectly clear. The scripture of the Holy Bible has the only scientific answer. The scripture of the Holy Bible was authored by the creator of existence. The Holy Bible contains approximately 2,500 prophecies with approximately 2,000 prophecies fulfilled.
The statistical probability is 10(2000) to 1 . The total revelation of scripture is infinite.

2 Timothy 3: 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:


The only scientific explanation of existence and reality is God . [/B]

Colossians 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.


God's love is the explanation to the question of why .
[/B]
Colossians 2:2 That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ;

Ephesians 3:19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

It's just irreducible complexity, it's a way of saying it doesn't make sense and bypassing the evidence of cosmological and biological evolution that develops complex structures without a deity controlling it.

Quote:God's love is the explanation to the question of why .

WTF does this mean? Could they show you the actual math equation that defines love and how do you derive energy, mass, force, etc. from the love equation?

Pure nonsense.Laughat

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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09-04-2015, 04:08 PM
RE: Can someone explain the math behind this?
Two options --

1. An incredibly improbable universe exists - and life found a way to happen in it.
2. An incredibly improbable universe exists - and life found a way to happen in it - because an improbable, immortal, and unprovable being came along and created it.

....

The "godless version" has less improbables...

.......................................

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09-04-2015, 04:10 PM
RE: Can someone explain the math behind this?
But to say that the universe is incredibly improbable is basically committing the lottery fallacy.

Quantum Physics: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
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