Can't criticize Islam among liberals?
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11-08-2016, 11:22 PM
RE: Can't criticize Islam among liberals?
Also I get pissed off when Christians suggest that liberals only attack Christianity and spare Islam, as if we'd give a pass to Islam for some unspecified reason.

I usually reply with something like, "Well, buddy, it's because Christians in this country pose a clear and present danger to my liberties, and Muslims do not, but I think both of your magic-sky-fairy religions are equally stupid... there's a difference between respecting the beliefs and respecting the person, and if you can't understand what that difference is then you are part of the problem."

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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12-08-2016, 08:07 AM
RE: Can't criticize Islam among liberals?
(11-08-2016 11:17 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  I keep hearing this meme repeated, that "liberals" don't like anyone to criticize Islam. What bullshit.

I'm a liberal, and I criticize Islam the same as any religion. All religions are gullibility and brainwashing, and all have a history of making some people behave better and more humanely, while causing others to behave very dangerously.

However, when I see actual bigotry being expressed toward Muslims, or outright wrong statements about what Muslims think (or pretense that they all think like the extremists and/or those who were raised in the culture of fucked-up countries), especially for the purpose of suggesting that Muslims should be treated badly in some way or are not a part of our society, I will object.

Part of my liberalism is the fierce belief that we must all be free to believe whatever stupid shit we want, so long as we do not harm others. I have known many, many Muslims, and found all the ones I have known (in this not-quite-as-fucked-up country called the USA) to be overwhelmingly a group of kind, thoughtful people. I have also met a couple of Imams who make my skin crawl... but the same applies to Christians in every respect. [Edit to Add: I would point out that Christianity has a VERY recent shift toward more-liberal thinking, and that sodomy was only legalized in the United States in 2004, requiring a Supreme Court decision to do so, over the objections of Christian moralists in congress and in pulpits everywhere.]

And yet no one points to the fucked up views of extremist Christians (of whom we have many, here in the USA, from homophobic evangelicals to the Klan's "Church of Jesus Christ, Christian" denomination) and tries to suggest that all Christians should be suspect, or somehow excluded from society, because of their psychotic brethren.

That is how liberals see Islam and the Muslims who practice it, and why we attack those who step over the line from criticism into bigotry. Yes, there are a few extremists on the liberal side who call anything bigotry, and they annoy me as much as anyone else. But the meme that says we attack anyone who criticizes Islam is utter bullshit, designed only to silence those who are trying ensure we treat our fellow human beings humanely, with respect and dignity, even if they have stupid religious beliefs. That protects everyone who is of the "wrong belief", including us atheists (in the eyes of the majority theists around us).

^ This. Took the words right out of my keyboard.

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12-08-2016, 11:58 AM (This post was last modified: 12-08-2016 12:03 PM by Lord Dark Helmet.)
RE: Can't criticize Islam among liberals?
I've observed atheists on this website, and other atheist forums, write things like "I avoid christians." "I wouldn't live in the bible belt area of America." "Christians make me sick."

But make the statement "I avoid muslims." "I wouldn't live next to a mosque." Or "Muslims make me sick" and those same atheists are screaming "you're a bigot!!!"

"Evil will always triumph over good, because good is dumb." - Lord Dark Helmet
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12-08-2016, 12:18 PM
RE: Can't criticize Islam among liberals?
(11-08-2016 11:17 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  However, when I see actual bigotry being expressed toward Muslims, or outright wrong statements about what Muslims think (or pretense that they all think like the extremists and/or those who were raised in the culture of fucked-up countries), especially for the purpose of suggesting that Muslims should be treated badly in some way or are not a part of our society, I will object.

I don't condone or support any sort of policies or discrimination toward Muslims as people, as citizen. That would be the very anti-liberal things to do. Liberalism is all about the equal treatment of all groups of people, in that aspect I am very liberal.

To be clear, this is definitely not what this topic was about. It had been my experience, and I am surprised others are not experiencing this, is that every time I criticized Islam as a "RELIGION" and all its anti-liberal beliefs, I am somehow labeled as prejudice or even racist as if Muslim is a race. And mind you, many of them have no problem criticizing Christians or crazy ass Christians like the Westboro baptist church folks.

However, they tip toed around issues and fear of criticizing when a muslim held a view that homosexuality should be punishable by death, or stoning women is appropriate, or death is okay for people who left Islam faith. I am sorry, but any person that held this view is worthy of criticism as far as I'm concerned. Do I think the government should make discriminating laws against Muslims? Hell no, I would be the first to fight it. Though I still think it is disturbing that polls show a huge majority of them that believe in what listed above.

Allow me to further demonstrate what I mean. A pretty recent issue that bothers me is the Orlando shooting. It hits a bit closer to home because I am gay. So maybe the shooter was a closeted gay, but I am sure that was not what motivated him to go slaughtered almost 50 people. He was radicalized. But what do I hear from my liberal friends? Oh it was the gun. Well yes, maybe guns too. But the root cause was the fact that he was radicalized by the Islam faith. Yet everyone was afraid to bring that up? I think that is BS. He was a radical Muslim and Islam was the root cause of it. I am willing to bet just by looking at polls that even the muslims that wouldn't go out and shoot up gays themselves, they probably didn't see too much of an issue with it. So when I brought up the fact that he was a radical muslim, I was automatically labeled as ignorant and prejudice and that shut down the conversation.
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12-08-2016, 12:53 PM
RE: Can't criticize Islam among liberals?
This is why I asked the OP for definitions of Islam, Muslim and terrorist.

Because the original post blends it all and it's not the same thing at all.

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12-08-2016, 01:06 PM
RE: Can't criticize Islam among liberals?
(12-08-2016 11:58 AM)Lord Dark Helmet Wrote:  I've observed atheists on this website, and other atheist forums, write things like "I avoid christians." "I wouldn't live in the bible belt area of America." "Christians make me sick."

But make the statement "I avoid muslims." "I wouldn't live next to a mosque." Or "Muslims make me sick" and those same atheists are screaming "you're a bigot!!!"

Within walking distance, I have a Hindu Temple in my backyard, a Mosque across the street, an hispanic Baptist Church next to it, a Synagogue, a Buddhist Temple, 2 UUs, the Seventh Day Adventists World HQ, multiple Catholic Churches, and the Mormon Tabernacle of DC. Some Santaria around too but they don't advertise it. I wouldn't call you a bigot. I would call you intolerant and uninformed.

#sigh
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12-08-2016, 04:13 PM
RE: Can't criticize Islam among liberals?
(11-08-2016 06:06 PM)TheMoralist Wrote:  Not that I care to disclose my political view, but for the sake of this post, I will just say I am usually somewhere there in the middle.

Either way, I have a lot of friends who are very bright, most are very liberal too. However, why is it that criticizing the crazy shits in Islam is so frowned down upon? I am automatically a racist? They always said "Oh it is only the extremists or the radicals". In reality, a vast majority of "moderate" muslims hold the same view as these radicals. Why is it that liberals can criticize anyone or any set of theology, political views, or philosophy that are sexist, racist, homophobic yet when muslims hold those view as instructed by their belief, it is hand off? I think this special exception is stupid.

Doesn't this make most of these liberals to be hypocritical? Why are we not defending the principles we claimed to be champion of in the face of Islam?

I don't know about other liberals, but I actually give off a potent hormone that renders my foes physically incapable of criticizing Islam....

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12-08-2016, 08:44 PM
RE: Can't criticize Islam among liberals?
"Islam is the only religion that's like the mafia and will fucking kill you if you speak out against it."

- Bill Maher


The debate below between Sam Harris and a jackass Limousine Liberal named Ben Afleck really crystallizes the crux of the disconnect which liberals have in discussing Islam.





What I've found is that liberals - or at least the more radical amongst them - seem to despise western culture and will gravitate towards and defend anyone who is opposed to it.

Let's be clear here: just about every religion and holy books are a package that contain a lot of bad ideas, bad philosophies, and calls to do violence upon anyone who doesn't believe in their God. The bible calls for the death of apostates. So does the quran. Bhuddism teaches the concept of karma. The difference between Islam and Used Car Salesman #2 is that an overwhelming number Muslims actually believe that this kind of batshit is good policy, should be actively implemented by governments and really do either advocate or engage in violence, criminal acts, or terrorism to silence belief or behavior which contradicts their holy teachings.

There is a serious disconnect amongst liberals which seems to automatically associate such criticisms with racism, sexism, homophobia, xenophobia, etc. (ironically just about all the things Islam advocates) without ever critically examining the argument s presented. They will try to tear apart the author's authority or knowledge base of Islam, make false equivalencies (Christianity killed a lot of people too!). I have also witnessed fundamentalist Islam apologists amongst liberals - even atheists - who view radical Islam as a justifiable response to the negative things which western culture has done in the past, as in this clip where the late Christopher Hitchens tears a part a liberal making such a claim.





Ironically a lot of liberals cannot or will not see fundamentalist Islam for what it itself admits its end goals are - complete global conversion to Islam and put anyone who refuses to the sword as an act of kindness. Not only that but radical Islam actually mocks the same liberals who defend it as the 'religion of peace' as this ISIS propaganda article states.





What Islam desperately needs is a reformation; its undergoing the same struggles and growing pains which 16th century European Christianity went through as it is forced to witness the ugly truth of destructive and stagnating a theocracy is to cultural growth, human rights and integration and contribution the a global, technological society. This process is not helped when the people who are supposed to stand for liberal values are more obsessed with Western cultural self loathing than real opposition to real abuses of human rights and the threat posed by Islamic fundamentalism and global jihad.

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12-08-2016, 09:42 PM
RE: Can't criticize Islam among liberals?
So Ben Affleck is an idiot. What does that have to do with liberals?

I totally agree with your points about the Muslims in countries with a theocratic culture, and the fact that Christians overwhelmingly thought this way until relatively recently in history (some still do, and some of those people are in politics) when the Enlightenment pushed back against those ideas. I've known a couple of Iranian exchange students who outright told me that they can't wait to see a similar Enlightenment pervade the Middle Eastern nations, including theirs.

I totally concur that almost everything that Islam teaches is anti-female, anti-gay, and so on... and that it contains many dangerous ideas about what "God" wants us to do to our fellow human beings. As you pointed out, so do most religions, and any tempering of those dangerous ideas comes from other philosophies of humanism that have interposed themselves, as with modern, liberalized (post-Enlightenment) Christianity.

All that said, I must take issue with your description of what liberals tend to say about the behavior of Western nations and how Islamic cultures have been pushed to the radical right as a result of Western imperialism. I have had dozens of serious conversations about this in real life, and I have NEVER heard anyone describe it as "justifiable", simply understandable. The USA was similarly radicalized and pushed to the right by 9/11 and our reaction to a perceived existential threat from the outside; it's human psychology 101, going back to our roots as xenophobic tribalists. Understanding what we are doing that causes the populations of Middle Eastern countries to produce higher numbers of radicals and radical-sympathizers is not the same thing as justifying it, or hating the West. The simple fact is that Western nations have meddled in Middle Eastern nations (and several others) for our own benefit for the past couple of centuries, and it's sheer ignorance to overlook these factors in understanding why they "hate our freedom" (as Dubya put it).

And citing the ISIS magazine propaganda as indicative of the general sentiments of Muslims is too asinine to even address.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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13-08-2016, 12:56 AM
RE: Can't criticize Islam among liberals?
(11-08-2016 06:06 PM)TheMoralist Wrote:  In reality, a vast majority of "moderate" muslims hold the same view as these radicals.

Numbers, please?
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