Can't criticize Islam among liberals?
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13-08-2016, 01:05 AM
RE: Can't criticize Islam among liberals?
(12-08-2016 11:58 AM)Lord Dark Helmet Wrote:  I've observed atheists on this website, and other atheist forums, write things like "I avoid christians." "I wouldn't live in the bible belt area of America." "Christians make me sick."

But make the statement "I avoid muslims." "I wouldn't live next to a mosque." Or "Muslims make me sick" and those same atheists are screaming "you're a bigot!!!"

I'd object to those statements no matter the group they're aimed at. And I'd call them bigoted. I've spoken up here and elsewhere when folks broadbrush Christians or other theists.

Fact is, if you lump adherents together based on simplistic criteria, you're most likely practicing simplistic thinking.
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13-08-2016, 02:04 AM
RE: Can't criticize Islam among liberals?
I'm more afraid of people who push "us versus them" thinking than I am of the potential radicalization of Muslim neighbors (or immigrants), to be honest. There's been a concerted propaganda effort to make strawman "liberals" for the past few decades, usually centered around labeling us as irrational and/or Not Really One Of Us™, such that the Everyman will distrust liberal ideas, especially in places where conservative ideals tend to hold dominance.

The "hate the West" meme is one of the biggest ones, suggesting that anyone who criticizes the decisions of their government does not love their country (ironically, this claim tends to come from the people who so frequently claim they don't trust the government), or that they are trying to justify the evil actions of individuals/groups who seek to do us harm for any reason. If "we" are the West, and "liberals hate the West", then by definition the claim is that liberals hate "us"... the message is that liberals are the dangerous Other, among us, and not part of us.

The common technique, whether we're trying to alienate liberals or some feared minority group, is to point to the actions of batty or violent extremists who claim the title of the group (but who would be disavowed and loathed by 90% of the members of that group, in reality) and try to portray the whole group as somehow sympathizing with the extremist, instead.

We saw this with the internment of loyal Japanese-Americans, on the fear that some among them might be disloyal because they were of a certain race and/or had relatives in Japan.

We've seen it with the Black Lives Matter movement-- no matter how many times the members/leaders/spokespersons of that group say they do not want violence, and do not support the actions of anyone who is violent, we get bombarded with the video of the angry father saying "burn it" in a moment of grief, or of the psychopath who went out and shot police officers. Somehow their message of "make the police stop killing us so much" gets translated into "we hate the police", as with the recent meme I saw on Facebook, laughing about how BLM protesters ran to hide behind the police during the Dallas shootings... I was disgusted at the implication. They want GOOD police, same as anyone, but rather than take a good look at ourselves, many of us would rather try to paint them as the dangerous other, to be ignored and/or suppressed.

We've seen a lot of it with Islam. Not only do we ignore the fact that Muslims are actively resisting ISIS and are the people most commonly killed by them (by a pretty significant margin), we still are bombarded with the "can't trust Them" message. We see polls that ask if the Muslims support Jihad, but which don't explain to the audience that "Jihad" means something completely different to a Muslim than what we use the term to mean in the West. (Just like "Crusade" can mean a violent invasion but is usually used to denote a personal quest, such as with the "Campus Crusade for Christ", Jihad usually means a personal battle with some moral goal in mind-- like stopping drinking when one has slipped into alcoholism, or not using swear words, et cetera.)

Or my personal favorite, which is when someone suggests that Muslims need to out the radicals hiding among them, as if they know who they are and are just shielding them because of a shared religion-- ignoring that no radical would voice radical ideas to moderates/liberals in the congregation, and that no Christian knows the views of every potential radical in their church... they might all agree that abortion is evil and needs to be stopped, but that doesn't mean they're going to know that Robert L. Dear, the recluse in the back, was about to go shoot up the Colorado Springs Planned Parenthood clinic. Those clinic attacks are considered terrorism by the FBI... yet imagine if we, as a nation, went back and scrutinized every anti-abortion sermon that Mr. Dear's pastor had given, interrogated church members to "be sure" no one knew he was going to do it, and kept them under surveillance. After all, you never know about those Christians... they're all SUSPECT!

And damn the liberals who say they're just people with silly ideas, same as the rest of us.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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13-08-2016, 03:34 AM
RE: Can't criticize Islam among liberals?
Not a liberal myself. I know a few who have defended Islam, but they obviously don't speak for every liberal out there.

Fuck Islam.
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13-08-2016, 05:04 AM (This post was last modified: 13-08-2016 05:27 AM by Slowminded.)
RE: Can't criticize Islam among liberals?
(13-08-2016 02:04 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  Or my personal favorite, which is when someone suggests that Muslims need to out the radicals hiding among them, as if they know who they are and are just shielding them because of a shared religion


About one-third of respondents said they would tell the police if they knew someone who was getting involved with supporting terrorism in Syria. The same proportion refused to condemn people who take part in violence against those who mock the Prophet Muhammad


Article
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/15/world/...slims.html

Complete poll in PDF

https://www.icmunlimited.com/wp-content/...opline.pdf

Well, it seems that two thirds of UK Muslims would not report radicals among them even if they knew who they are . Also, two thirds refuse to condemn violence such as attack on Charlie Hebdo.

Quote:ignoring that no radical would voice radical ideas to moderates/liberals in the congregation

Lol, in Europe they are not hiding , they preach their radical version of Islam freely on the streets, in the mosques and on TV when they get the chance.
I have no problem spotting the Wahhabist on the street as well as the radical nationalist , saying that they don`t know who they are in their communities is ridiculous.

This is the video from Norway, not Pakistan,not Afghanistan.....Europe , watch it, and tell me are those moderates or extremists?





And also in US before the Orlando attack there was this guy preaching for death sentence for gays, in the Mosque , so I would say that radicals absolutely have no problem voicing their beliefs openly in the public, contrary to your claim.





I understand that from ideological stand point this is hard to swallow for you , but you really should rethink your "personal favorite" as an example of a baseless claim.

. . . ................................ ......................................... . [Image: 2dsmnow.gif] Eat at Joe's
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13-08-2016, 05:05 AM
RE: Can't criticize Islam among liberals?
(12-08-2016 08:44 PM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  ... Not only that but radical Islam actually mocks the same liberals who defend it as the 'religion of peace' as this ISIS propaganda article states.
...

(12-08-2016 09:42 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  So Ben Affleck is an idiot. What does that have to do with liberals?
...
And citing the ISIS magazine propaganda as indicative of the general sentiments of Muslims is too asinine to even address.

I see what you did there...

CTBD said "radical Islam" as did Harris.
RS76 converted that to "general sentiments of Muslims" as did Affleck.

Was that irony intentional?

Unsure

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13-08-2016, 05:50 AM
RE: Can't criticize Islam among liberals?
Some interesting thoughts. However i disagree when it is said that "Islam has to be protected from its literal interpretation". Wtf!? Why was it written down that way, literally? Facepalm

But they did a nice job of pointing out various hypocrisies!




Ceterum censeo, religionem delendam esse
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13-08-2016, 06:29 AM
RE: Can't criticize Islam among liberals?
(13-08-2016 05:05 AM)DLJ Wrote:  
(12-08-2016 08:44 PM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  ... Not only that but radical Islam actually mocks the same liberals who defend it as the 'religion of peace' as this ISIS propaganda article states.
...

(12-08-2016 09:42 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  So Ben Affleck is an idiot. What does that have to do with liberals?
...
And citing the ISIS magazine propaganda as indicative of the general sentiments of Muslims is too asinine to even address.

I see what you did there...

CTBD said "radical Islam" as did Harris.
RS76 converted that to "general sentiments of Muslims" as did Affleck.

Was that irony intentional?

Unsure

But it is "general sentiments of Muslims", as used here, and it's what Affleck (inarticulately) was trying to convey. When you start pointing at what the radicals do in a way that includes "and", like that, it implies that they're all part of a singular mindset, when they are not, any more than Christians who blow up clinics versus those who simply believe it is a sin to abort like all sins.

Both would reply that an abortion is a murder, and worthy of death; only one would mean "I should kill them".

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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13-08-2016, 07:17 AM
RE: Can't criticize Islam among liberals?
Islam, the religion, is probably the worst religion I know of.

Muslims, the people, unfortunately have been raised to be calloused towards several inhumane practices. Also, many of them live in fear, if you assume that there are as many gays and atheists etc. as in all other cultures. It will take generations for them to catch up.

Terrorists are batshit crazy the same way our Christian school shooters etc. are batshit crazy.

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13-08-2016, 10:17 AM
RE: Can't criticize Islam among liberals?
(13-08-2016 12:56 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  
(11-08-2016 06:06 PM)TheMoralist Wrote:  In reality, a vast majority of "moderate" muslims hold the same view as these radicals.

Numbers, please?


https://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com...g-picture/

https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages...polls.aspx


Those numbers are alarming.

Let's be honest here, Islam is a fucked up religion that seem to be stuck in the dark age. Many of these Muslim theocratic countries still stone women and hang the gays. Why are people so reluctant to criticize Islamic views when they are everything that liberal values are against?

This debate is getting stupid. Criticizing Islam and Muslims who believes in or even carry out its horrifying beliefs doesn't equate to me thinking they should be bashed. There is this trend that when a terrorist attacks happen, it is the "Extremists". Well maybe the extremists came about from the fostering of these so called "moderate" Muslims. Until we can seriously face this reality without being labeled as racist, hateful, or prejudice, there is going to be no conversation and no changes. 2/3 British Muslims said they would not report a plotted terror attack! That is crazy.
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13-08-2016, 10:58 AM
RE: Can't criticize Islam among liberals?
(13-08-2016 10:17 AM)TheMoralist Wrote:  This debate is getting stupid. Criticizing Islam and Muslims who believes in or even carry out its horrifying beliefs doesn't equate to me thinking they should be bashed. There is this trend that when a terrorist attacks happen, it is the "Extremists". Well maybe the extremists came about from the fostering of these so called "moderate" Muslims. Until we can seriously face this reality without being labeled as racist, hateful, or prejudice, there is going to be no conversation and no changes. 2/3 British Muslims said they would not report a plotted terror attack! That is crazy.

About the two third thing, I don't think its this crazy. It's very depressing and difficult to accept, but I don't think it necessarly express that much sympathy to terrorist organisation. Let's imagine I live in a poor, socially isolated area dominated by a violent mafia who plan a crime spree targetting another community, the one that feeds my poverty and social isolation in my mind. I witness the preparation. I am not to sure I would report it. I would probably be too scared of reprisal against me. I know the mafia to be incredibly dangerous and ready to kill any opponent, including member of their own community. In fact, they are the most common victim by a landslide. I might have a precarious job and a familly. I can't become a witness to a serious crime like that, I could be force to leave my job and then what's going to happen to us? What if my friends are targetted instead of me, or my workplace or a random person to make an exemple of what happens to «traitors»? Plus, my trust and love in the main community is actually pretty low. We don't share a lot of values, they are largely responsible for the attrocities commited against my country of origin and its allies, they look down on me for various reason and we have very little positive interractions. I am not a bad person, but I am not a hero. I don't want them to suffer from the action of the mafia, but I don't want to risk my life or that of my familly for them. Plus, they got a huge army, police officers everywhere and spies. Their media talk constantly about the mafia and its crime. Surely, they already know about it...

That to me is a very human way of thinking. It's lazy and a bit selfish, but I would not make any grandstanding and accuse any such person to be a coward. While I don't like it, I might very well be prey to the same mode of reasonning. Beside a post on internet here and there (maybe I give some money to organism trying to repair the damages or participate in a solidarity march), I do not fight the political and economical atrocities perpetrated by my own country that costs thousand of lives every year in the poorest region of the world in a unjustifiable fashion.

Freedom is servitude to justice and intellectual honesty.
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