Can't criticize Islam among liberals?
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
13-08-2016, 12:04 PM (This post was last modified: 13-08-2016 12:10 PM by Thumpalumpacus.)
RE: Can't criticize Islam among liberals?
(13-08-2016 10:17 AM)TheMoralist Wrote:  
(13-08-2016 12:56 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  Numbers, please?


https://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com...g-picture/

Wait, you claimed that a "vast majority" hold the same views as radicals, yet the first article has this graph:

[Image: picture-1.png?w=303&h=693]

Clearly, the vast majority do not think suicide bombing is justified. And insofar as support for Sharia is concerned, those bars look scary, until you realize that weighted by population, those graphs would look very different, given that Indonesia trends away from Sharia support and India, with 11% of all Muslims worldwide, is not included.

(13-08-2016 10:17 AM)TheMoralist Wrote:  https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages...polls.aspx

Nope, no "overwhelming majorities" there either.

Who has convinced you that overwhelming majorities of Muslims support radical jihad? And why do you buy into that narrative when your own support demonstrates that it simply isn't true?


(13-08-2016 10:17 AM)TheMoralist Wrote:  Let's be honest here, Islam is a fucked up religion that seem to be stuck in the dark age. Many of these Muslim theocratic countries still stone women and hang the gays. Why are people so reluctant to criticize Islamic views when they are everything that liberal values are against?

I have no problem criticizing Islam as a religion.

(13-08-2016 10:17 AM)TheMoralist Wrote:  This debate is getting stupid. Criticizing Islam and Muslims who believes in or even carry out its horrifying beliefs doesn't equate to me thinking they should be bashed.

So, too, is this idea that those of us who reject broad-brush attacks are "defending" Islam. We're not. I can, have, and will continue to criticize Islam and the atrocities committed in its name. But I reject the notion, widespread in American thinking, that Muslims are inherently dangerous people who should be scrutinized, profiled, or even (as suggested by a pretty popular Presidential candidate) denied entry into America based on their faith.

(13-08-2016 10:17 AM)TheMoralist Wrote:  There is this trend that when a terrorist attacks happen, it is the "Extremists". Well maybe the extremists came about from the fostering of these so called "moderate" Muslims.

The data you yourself provided above doesn't demonstrate this.

(13-08-2016 10:17 AM)TheMoralist Wrote:  Until we can seriously face this reality without being labeled as racist, hateful, or prejudice, there is going to be no conversation and no changes.

I don't think you're racist or hateful. I do think you need to realign your opinions so that they comport with the data.

(13-08-2016 10:17 AM)TheMoralist Wrote:  2/3 British Muslims said they would not report a plotted terror attack! That is crazy.

From that same source, your second article:

Quote:27% of British Muslims do not support the deportation of Islamic extremists preaching violence and hate.
http://www.danielpipes.org/blog/2005/07/...amist.html

Federation of Student Islamic Societies: About 1 in 5 Muslim students in Britain (18%) would not report a fellow Muslim planning a terror attack.
http://www.danielpipes.org/blog/2005/07/...h-islamist

ICM Poll: 25% of British Muslims disagree that a Muslim has an obligation to report terrorists to police.
http://www.danielpipes.org/blog/2005/07/...h-islamist

Why is it you pick the scariest tidbit rather than reporting them all? Can you -- and more to the point, can I -- be sure you're not servicing your own biases with such selective reading?
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 5 users Like Thumpalumpacus's post
13-08-2016, 03:23 PM (This post was last modified: 13-08-2016 03:36 PM by TheMoralist.)
RE: Can't criticize Islam among liberals?
(13-08-2016 12:04 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  
(13-08-2016 10:17 AM)TheMoralist Wrote:  https://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com...g-picture/

Wait, you claimed that a "vast majority" hold the same views as radicals, yet the first article has this graph:

[Image: picture-1.png?w=303&h=693]

Clearly, the vast majority do not think suicide bombing is justified. And insofar as support for Sharia is concerned, those bars look scary, until you realize that weighted by population, those graphs would look very different, given that Indonesia trends away from Sharia support and India, with 11% of all Muslims worldwide, is not included.

(13-08-2016 10:17 AM)TheMoralist Wrote:  https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages...polls.aspx

Nope, no "overwhelming majorities" there either.

Who has convinced you that overwhelming majorities of Muslims support radical jihad? And why do you buy into that narrative when your own support demonstrates that it simply isn't true?


(13-08-2016 10:17 AM)TheMoralist Wrote:  Let's be honest here, Islam is a fucked up religion that seem to be stuck in the dark age. Many of these Muslim theocratic countries still stone women and hang the gays. Why are people so reluctant to criticize Islamic views when they are everything that liberal values are against?

I have no problem criticizing Islam as a religion.

(13-08-2016 10:17 AM)TheMoralist Wrote:  This debate is getting stupid. Criticizing Islam and Muslims who believes in or even carry out its horrifying beliefs doesn't equate to me thinking they should be bashed.

So, too, is this idea that those of us who reject broad-brush attacks are "defending" Islam. We're not. I can, have, and will continue to criticize Islam and the atrocities committed in its name. But I reject the notion, widespread in American thinking, that Muslims are inherently dangerous people who should be scrutinized, profiled, or even (as suggested by a pretty popular Presidential candidate) denied entry into America based on their faith.

(13-08-2016 10:17 AM)TheMoralist Wrote:  There is this trend that when a terrorist attacks happen, it is the "Extremists". Well maybe the extremists came about from the fostering of these so called "moderate" Muslims.

The data you yourself provided above doesn't demonstrate this.

(13-08-2016 10:17 AM)TheMoralist Wrote:  Until we can seriously face this reality without being labeled as racist, hateful, or prejudice, there is going to be no conversation and no changes.

I don't think you're racist or hateful. I do think you need to realign your opinions so that they comport with the data.

(13-08-2016 10:17 AM)TheMoralist Wrote:  2/3 British Muslims said they would not report a plotted terror attack! That is crazy.

From that same source, your second article:

Quote:27% of British Muslims do not support the deportation of Islamic extremists preaching violence and hate.
http://www.danielpipes.org/blog/2005/07/...amist.html

Federation of Student Islamic Societies: About 1 in 5 Muslim students in Britain (18%) would not report a fellow Muslim planning a terror attack.
http://www.danielpipes.org/blog/2005/07/...h-islamist

ICM Poll: 25% of British Muslims disagree that a Muslim has an obligation to report terrorists to police.
http://www.danielpipes.org/blog/2005/07/...h-islamist

Why is it you pick the scariest tidbit rather than reporting them all? Can you -- and more to the point, can I -- be sure you're not servicing your own biases with such selective reading?

Okay, maybe you should read what I actually said before you start calling me biased or that the data doesn't support what I am saying. let's stay relevant to what I am saying in the context shall we? You quoted me saying that the vast majority of muslims hold the same views as these radicals. Let's take a look at what I actually said. The whole paragraph on which you extracted the quote from is this:

Either way, I have a lot of friends who are very bright, most are very liberal too. However, why is it that criticizing the crazy shits in Islam is so frowned down upon? I am automatically a racist? They always said "Oh it is only the extremists or the radicals". In reality, a vast majority of "moderate" muslims hold the same view as these radicals. Why is it that liberals can criticize anyone or any set of theology, political views, or philosophy that are sexist, racist, homophobic yet when muslims hold those view as instructed by their belief, it is hand off? I think this special exception is stupid.

As you can see, I am saying that the vast majority of Muslims held views and beliefs that most people want to think that only the extremists do. Then I proceed to state in following sentence that people can criticize people, philosophy, or theology guilty of homophobia, sexism, and racists, yet it is hand off when it comes from Muslims and their faith. So I am talking about these views and beliefs specifically which are anti-liberalism.

Here are what the polls are telling me.

[Image: equality.png?w=1086&h=221h]

[Image: homosexuality.png?w=1179]

So yes, what I said is backed up by data. My opinion stays aligned with data. Clearly if you disagree with what I said in the context in which you quoted me from, then you are the only one that are biased disregarding data. Anything else you think I said is on you.

And the 2/3 people wouldn't report a plotted terrorists attack is me adding to the conversation. Not necessarily toward you or answering your original request for numbers because I already did. It was something that I find disturbing and wanted to make a comment on.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes TheMoralist's post
13-08-2016, 05:30 PM
RE: Can't criticize Islam among liberals?
I definitely agree that "modern" Muslim thought on our ideas of morality are in line with Old Testament "values" that only the most hardcore fundamentalists among Christians still cling to (about 1/3, roughly, at least in the USA), including the views about homosexuality. All the Abrahamic faiths except for liberal Christianity and reform Judaism are against everything I stand for as a liberal, and I feel nothing but scorn for those religious beliefs.

"Is homosexual behavior moral?"

Want to try taking that poll in the American south, or among fundamentalist churches across Christendom?

I am as eager as my Iranian friends from college to see a liberalization among Muslim-dominated nations, which is one of the reasons I hope to see Muslim refugees being welcomed into our Western societies, even if they don't fit in with our values at first... successive generations will liberalize and assimilate to larger and larger degrees, and this will have an influence on the religion as a whole (in this day and age of worldwide communications).

Despite all the propaganda about world domination, if you read the literature cherished by violent Islamists (such as Sayyid Qutb's evaluation of our culture, a book that inspired radicalization in Osama bin Laden), it's the real reason why ISIS and similar groups are fighting us-- they recognize damned well that the Stone Age values they cherish are being eroded by people who finally get to talk to other cultures, or to foreigners that arrive amid their culture and show another example of how to think, when they've only had one narrative going for the last 900 years. (I cite to 1100 CE rather than 700 simply because Islam almost had a Renaissance of their own, but it was squashed by the forces of fundamentalism... a reason I fear such forces among the Christians, in this country.) Prior to this generation, it was possible for the Islamist theocrats to keep their countries almost totally isolated from the world, in order to maintain their hegemony, but I believe the dam will break... we just have to go through a lot of pressure between now and that day.

I think living up to our liberal values and welcoming the Muslims into our society to be treated equally and openly will help to alleviate that pressure, while treating them all like shit will only increase the numbers who feel alienated enough to radicalize and start listening to the "back to the good ol' days of Godly morality" conservative Imams. Yes, it means we'll suffer attacks and threats and other misery as the proponents of the old ways realize they're losing and get frustrated enough to turn to violence as an attempt to stem the tide, but that is to me the price of freedom (and secularism/pluralism) for everyone.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 6 users Like RocketSurgeon76's post
13-08-2016, 07:47 PM (This post was last modified: 13-08-2016 07:55 PM by TheMoralist.)
RE: Can't criticize Islam among liberals?
Quote:Want to try taking that poll in the American south, or among fundamentalist churches across Christendom?


I am not saying Christian fundamentalist do not view the same. The topic was never about comparing the two. As far as I am concerned, fundamental Christians are just as bat shit crazy and I have no fear of saying it. BTW I am from Oklahoma so I see these fundamentalist often.

Having that said, Yes Christians are more accepting of homosexuals here in the US.

[Image: FT_15.12.15_homosexualityChristian.png]

Quote:I think living up to our liberal values and welcoming the Muslims into our society to be treated equally and openly will help to alleviate that pressure, while treating them all like shit will only increase the numbers who feel alienated enough to radicalize and start listening to the "back to the good ol' days of Godly morality" conservative Imams. Yes, it means we'll suffer attacks and threats and other misery as the proponents of the old ways realize they're losing and get frustrated enough to turn to violence as an attempt to stem the tide, but that is to me the price of freedom (and secularism/pluralism) for everyone.

Here in the United States, among most of my liberal friends, we have no problem harshly criticizing and even demonized these fundamental Christians that held beliefs that are anti-liberalism. Look at the protests and harsh words we had against people like Westboro Baptist church folks. Christian fundamentalist activists and politicians are practically insulted for their dark age views on issues. Yet, why is it politically incorrect to do the same to someone who is a Muslim? Because pointing out their outdated harmful beliefs that are everything Liberalism is against is treating them like "shit"? So it is hand off? So lets just sit back and suffer the attack and hopefully that they will somehow change? This perfectly demonstrated what I had been talking about and I just don't buy it. I think anti-liberal views need to be called out whether it came from a Christian, a muslim, or whoever. I think change happens when there is a social pressure for it. I think the only way to put behind these out dated beliefs is to discourage it, to frown upon it, and to be vocal about it.

I am not calling for unequal treatment. I think I made that clear. I think they have the right to believe and be just as much as Christians or anyone else. I would be the first to fight any legislation that seeks to do otherwise. But the conversation needs to happen just as it is happening with Christianity.

And if this video has any truth at all, I am more afraid of a "moderate" muslim than a moderate Christian, heck not even Christian fundamentalists:



Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes TheMoralist's post
13-08-2016, 08:33 PM
RE: Can't criticize Islam among liberals?
Yes, the church--even the evangelicals/fundamentalists--has shifted its position on social permissivity a lot in the past few decades, let alone in the seven years shown by that graph. And yet almost all of them would still call homosexuality a grievous sin. The difference lies in whether or not they accept that others should be able to commit that sin without being suppressed by the "moral majority".

A better comparison would be between Christians of 1916 and Muslims today, in general. They simply haven't had that overall shift away from literalism and Old Testament (the Qur'an is mostly just the OT, retold in Arab contexts) that Christians have experienced in the past century.

But, again, I should point out that I can just as easily go on the internet and point to a preacher from a mainline church, not WBC, talking about homosexuals and speaking out against social permissiveness in a way that would make your skin crawl just as much as this guy's backward ass.

And again, I'm pretty sure it's not a mainstream liberal view that it's unacceptable to criticize Islam's tenets. I keep hearing this meme repeated, but have not seen it to be backed up by reality. There's a great many Straw Liberal memes floating around, out there.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 3 users Like RocketSurgeon76's post
13-08-2016, 11:11 PM
RE: Can't criticize Islam among liberals?
(13-08-2016 08:33 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  And again, I'm pretty sure it's not a mainstream liberal view that it's unacceptable to criticize Islam's tenets. I keep hearing this meme repeated, but have not seen it to be backed up by reality. There's a great many Straw Liberal memes floating around, out there.

I supposed your experience and mine hadn't been the same then.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
13-08-2016, 11:59 PM (This post was last modified: 14-08-2016 12:05 AM by Thumpalumpacus.)
RE: Can't criticize Islam among liberals?
(13-08-2016 03:23 PM)TheMoralist Wrote:  Okay, maybe you should read what I actually said before you start calling me biased or that the data doesn't support what I am saying.

I did.

(13-08-2016 03:23 PM)TheMoralist Wrote:  let's stay relevant to what I am saying in the context shall we? You quoted me saying that the vast majority of muslims hold the same views as these radicals. Let's take a look at what I actually said. The whole paragraph on which you extracted the quote from is this:

Either way, I have a lot of friends who are very bright, most are very liberal too. However, why is it that criticizing the crazy shits in Islam is so frowned down upon? I am automatically a racist? They always said "Oh it is only the extremists or the radicals". In reality, a vast majority of "moderate" muslims hold the same view as these radicals. Why is it that liberals can criticize anyone or any set of theology, political views, or philosophy that are sexist, racist, homophobic yet when muslims hold those view as instructed by their belief, it is hand off? I think this special exception is stupid.

As you can see, I am saying that the vast majority of Muslims held views and beliefs that most people want to think that only the extremists do.

And the facts show otherwise. The vast majority do not advocate for violent jihad in poll after poll, which is in fact the part of an extremist's outlook which marks him as extreme.

And furthermore, I don't think liberals are defending the tenets of Islam. I think what they're doing is denigrating a broad-brush approach that takes the actions of a miniscule minority and attempts to impute it to an overwhelming majority who have nothing to do with those actions. Liberals are well aware of the backwardness of Islamic law as it is reflected in Islamic societies, and indeed are often at the forefront of protesting barbarities (Amnesty International comes to mind immediately). They can and do criticize the offending tenets, but at the same time, they argue against building stereotypes based on the actions of a minority.

The overwhelming majority of Christians I know aren't douchebags, so I don't judge them based on the fact that they hold some key tenets in common with the Westboro Baptist Church.

Long story short, your appeal to context doesn't change the significance of what you're saying, nor does it impact my argument.

(13-08-2016 03:23 PM)TheMoralist Wrote:  Then I proceed to state in following sentence that people can criticize people, philosophy, or theology guilty of homophobia, sexism, and racists, yet it is hand off when it comes from Muslims and their faith. So I am talking about these views and beliefs specifically which are anti-liberalism.

Your problem here is that it's not "hands-off". Criticism is allowed, sometimes objected to, but it certainly isn't disallowed.

(13-08-2016 03:23 PM)TheMoralist Wrote:  Here are what the polls are telling me.

https://whyevolutionistrue.files.wordpre...086&h=221h

https://whyevolutionistrue.files.wordpre...png?w=1179

So yes, what I said is backed up by data. My opinion stays aligned with data. Clearly if you disagree with what I said in the context in which you quoted me from, then you are the only one that are biased disregarding data. Anything else you think I said is on you.

You're free to think what you will. Of course Islam espouses an odious sexism and intolerance of other religions. But this idea that laying that critique is not permitted by liberals doesn't comport with my experience.

As for my own bias regarding data, this discussion is about attitudes towards criticizing Islamic principles, not those principles themselves. That some are widely held and shared by extremists is obviously true. But the crucial marker, that of approving of violence in order to propagate those views, is not shared by the vast majority of Muslims. Oddly enough, that is exactly the view that marks extremism. So it's truly said that the vast majority of Muslims do not agree with extremists and their approach to spreading their faith. My apologies for not making that clearer.

Assuming that because they share the same view about Sharia of female modesty means that they support extremist terror is a non sequitur.

(13-08-2016 03:23 PM)TheMoralist Wrote:  And the 2/3 people wouldn't report a plotted terrorists attack is me adding to the conversation. Not necessarily toward you or answering your original request for numbers because I already did. It was something that I find disturbing and wanted to make a comment on.

And yet you ignored the other data in your own source which indicates that that figure may not be accurate. That selectiveness which you showed, and which you're now trying to explain, is exactly why I suspect bias on your part.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 3 users Like Thumpalumpacus's post
14-08-2016, 01:25 AM
RE: Can't criticize Islam among liberals?
+4 more Likes for that, Thump, to make it a total of five from me. Well said.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
14-08-2016, 04:28 AM
RE: Can't criticize Islam among liberals?
(12-08-2016 09:42 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  So Ben Affleck is an idiot. What does that have to do with liberals?

I totally agree with your points about the Muslims in countries with a theocratic culture, and the fact that Christians overwhelmingly thought this way until relatively recently in history (some still do, and some of those people are in politics) when the Enlightenment pushed back against those ideas. I've known a couple of Iranian exchange students who outright told me that they can't wait to see a similar Enlightenment pervade the Middle Eastern nations, including theirs.

I totally concur that almost everything that Islam teaches is anti-female, anti-gay, and so on... and that it contains many dangerous ideas about what "God" wants us to do to our fellow human beings. As you pointed out, so do most religions, and any tempering of those dangerous ideas comes from other philosophies of humanism that have interposed themselves, as with modern, liberalized (post-Enlightenment) Christianity.

All that said, I must take issue with your description of what liberals tend to say about the behavior of Western nations and how Islamic cultures have been pushed to the radical right as a result of Western imperialism. I have had dozens of serious conversations about this in real life, and I have NEVER heard anyone describe it as "justifiable", simply understandable. The USA was similarly radicalized and pushed to the right by 9/11 and our reaction to a perceived existential threat from the outside; it's human psychology 101, going back to our roots as xenophobic tribalists. Understanding what we are doing that causes the populations of Middle Eastern countries to produce higher numbers of radicals and radical-sympathizers is not the same thing as justifying it, or hating the West. The simple fact is that Western nations have meddled in Middle Eastern nations (and several others) for our own benefit for the past couple of centuries, and it's sheer ignorance to overlook these factors in understanding why they "hate our freedom" (as Dubya put it).

And citing the ISIS magazine propaganda as indicative of the general sentiments of Muslims is too asinine to even address.

Are you going to bring up the crusades next?

Saints live in flames; wise men, next to them.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
14-08-2016, 04:32 AM
RE: Can't criticize Islam among liberals?
(13-08-2016 12:56 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  
(11-08-2016 06:06 PM)TheMoralist Wrote:  In reality, a vast majority of "moderate" muslims hold the same view as these radicals.

Numbers, please?

http://www.pewforum.org/files/2013/04/wo...report.pdf

I'm not sure if his assertion is correct, cba sifting through data but that's a good report.

Knowing how rapidly Muslim views and attitudes are changing in the world I wouldn't be surprised that if the survey was done again now there would be quite a difference in a lot of those results. Especially if done in Western countries.

Edit: Although I'm not sure if the assertion is correct, this survey shows that the one thing separating moderates & extremists in most cases is the fast that extremists are willing to take action in course of their views

Saints live in flames; wise men, next to them.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: