Can't criticize Islam among liberals?
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
14-08-2016, 04:52 AM
RE: Can't criticize Islam among liberals?
(14-08-2016 04:28 AM)SunnyD1 Wrote:  Are you going to bring up the crusades next?

In what context? The Crusades are still very much on the minds of the Muslims (and, I believe, were the major factor that led to the rise in fundamentalism that destroyed the flowering culture of Muslim science, in the early 12th century) to the point that they still refer to Americans who go there for our military-backed economic interests by that term. But the reality is that the Crusades were much more about trade routes and control of strategic territories than they were about religion, so there's a parallel between the Crusades and today's Oil Wars, I suppose.

Or did you mean you think I want to blame Christianity today for what they did a millennium ago, simply to "score points" against that religion? No. I just can't see, with the exception of the above, how the Crusades would be relevant.

I was referring to the recent shift in Christian thinking, over the past 3-400 years and especially in the last century, as compared to the religious traditions which have largely continued unchecked among "modern" Muslim cultures.

Given that Islam was founded ~600 years after the creation of Christianity, I'd say that the Muslims are roughly where the Christians were in the 1400s, during the height of the Inquisition (not to mention what the Conquistadors were starting to do to the indigenous peoples they'd just met in the Americas, including destroying their scriptures In The Name of the Lord™ and forcing conversions).

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes RocketSurgeon76's post
14-08-2016, 06:25 AM
RE: Can't criticize Islam among liberals?
(13-08-2016 12:56 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  
(11-08-2016 06:06 PM)TheMoralist Wrote:  In reality, a vast majority of "moderate" muslims hold the same view as these radicals.

Numbers, please?

[Image: vu7H9s.jpg]

Source: http://www.pewforum.org/files/2013/04/wo...report.pdf

The evidence sure doesn't fit the liberal narrative, does it? People like RocketSurgeon have been proving OP's point plenty in this thread.

[Image: 7oDSbD4.gif]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Vosur's post
14-08-2016, 07:21 AM
RE: Can't criticize Islam among liberals?
For fuck's sake, Vosur, I'm aware of the numbers you're citing. But it's disingenuous. You're being an asshole and smirking at the "naive" liberal, as if I'm unaware of the problems in Muslim culture or overlooking them. Is that kind of dickery standard-issue among conservatives, or do you have to practice?

You're citing to cultures which unfortunately have retained the barbaric patriarchal religion bullshit that Christian cultures (and more moderate Muslim cultures) have only recently shed. Other Muslims (and cultures) do not share that group, as in the half a billion who don't even fit into the "Sharia should rule" group, the 3/4ths of a billion (55%) who don't fit into the "do what the Quran says and stone people for adultery" group, and so on to the ever-smaller circles. There's no question that those cultures are fucked up, just as Christian culture was deeply fucked up by Biblical literalism for centuries.

Today, what percentage of Christians would still say that the Bible says a wife is to obey her husband?

Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything. - Ephesians 5:22-24 (for one example)

You'd still find high numbers who'd answer yes to that statement. Imagine what the percent who agreed with that number would have been, among Christians, only 50 years ago. So there goes the big circle. And if I asked a similar question of Christians, "Should we govern our societies according to the Ten Commandments?", what percent of them would answer yes?

I'll give you a hint. In a Public Policy Polling questionnaire, recently, 57% of Republicans answered that they would favor making Christianity the national religion, while another 13% "weren't sure".

(Republicans) Would you support or oppose establishing Christianity as the national religion?
57% Support establishing Christianity as thenational religion
30% Oppose establishing Christianity as the national religion
Not sure 13%


http://www.publicpolicypolling.com/pdf/2..._22415.pdf

I am not naive, nor do I make excuses for their ignorance and bigotry and violations of what I consider "unalienable" basic human rights in the name of religion... the difference between us is that I don't pretend that Muslims have a special monopoly on this brand of religious insanity. They just haven't been tempered by the influence of humanists in their cultures, in the way that Christianity experienced in the past few decades.

So fuck off with that "proving OP's point plenty" shit, man.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes RocketSurgeon76's post
14-08-2016, 07:40 AM
RE: Can't criticize Islam among liberals?
(13-08-2016 11:59 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  
(13-08-2016 03:23 PM)TheMoralist Wrote:  Okay, maybe you should read what I actually said before you start calling me biased or that the data doesn't support what I am saying.

I did.

(13-08-2016 03:23 PM)TheMoralist Wrote:  let's stay relevant to what I am saying in the context shall we? You quoted me saying that the vast majority of muslims hold the same views as these radicals. Let's take a look at what I actually said. The whole paragraph on which you extracted the quote from is this:

Either way, I have a lot of friends who are very bright, most are very liberal too. However, why is it that criticizing the crazy shits in Islam is so frowned down upon? I am automatically a racist? They always said "Oh it is only the extremists or the radicals". In reality, a vast majority of "moderate" muslims hold the same view as these radicals. Why is it that liberals can criticize anyone or any set of theology, political views, or philosophy that are sexist, racist, homophobic yet when muslims hold those view as instructed by their belief, it is hand off? I think this special exception is stupid.

As you can see, I am saying that the vast majority of Muslims held views and beliefs that most people want to think that only the extremists do.

And the facts show otherwise. The vast majority do not advocate for violent jihad in poll after poll, which is in fact the part of an extremist's outlook which marks him as extreme.

And furthermore, I don't think liberals are defending the tenets of Islam. I think what they're doing is denigrating a broad-brush approach that takes the actions of a miniscule minority and attempts to impute it to an overwhelming majority who have nothing to do with those actions. Liberals are well aware of the backwardness of Islamic law as it is reflected in Islamic societies, and indeed are often at the forefront of protesting barbarities (Amnesty International comes to mind immediately). They can and do criticize the offending tenets, but at the same time, they argue against building stereotypes based on the actions of a minority.

The overwhelming majority of Christians I know aren't douchebags, so I don't judge them based on the fact that they hold some key tenets in common with the Westboro Baptist Church.

Long story short, your appeal to context doesn't change the significance of what you're saying, nor does it impact my argument.

(13-08-2016 03:23 PM)TheMoralist Wrote:  Then I proceed to state in following sentence that people can criticize people, philosophy, or theology guilty of homophobia, sexism, and racists, yet it is hand off when it comes from Muslims and their faith. So I am talking about these views and beliefs specifically which are anti-liberalism.

Your problem here is that it's not "hands-off". Criticism is allowed, sometimes objected to, but it certainly isn't disallowed.

(13-08-2016 03:23 PM)TheMoralist Wrote:  Here are what the polls are telling me.

https://whyevolutionistrue.files.wordpre...086&h=221h

https://whyevolutionistrue.files.wordpre...png?w=1179

So yes, what I said is backed up by data. My opinion stays aligned with data. Clearly if you disagree with what I said in the context in which you quoted me from, then you are the only one that are biased disregarding data. Anything else you think I said is on you.

You're free to think what you will. Of course Islam espouses an odious sexism and intolerance of other religions. But this idea that laying that critique is not permitted by liberals doesn't comport with my experience.

As for my own bias regarding data, this discussion is about attitudes towards criticizing Islamic principles, not those principles themselves. That some are widely held and shared by extremists is obviously true. But the crucial marker, that of approving of violence in order to propagate those views, is not shared by the vast majority of Muslims. Oddly enough, that is exactly the view that marks extremism. So it's truly said that the vast majority of Muslims do not agree with extremists and their approach to spreading their faith. My apologies for not making that clearer.

Assuming that because they share the same view about Sharia of female modesty means that they support extremist terror is a non sequitur.

(13-08-2016 03:23 PM)TheMoralist Wrote:  And the 2/3 people wouldn't report a plotted terrorists attack is me adding to the conversation. Not necessarily toward you or answering your original request for numbers because I already did. It was something that I find disturbing and wanted to make a comment on.

And yet you ignored the other data in your own source which indicates that that figure may not be accurate. That selectiveness which you showed, and which you're now trying to explain, is exactly why I suspect bias on your part.



Oh for fuck's sake, you obviously didnt read what I said if you still try to put words in my mouth. You still take what I said out of context. Did I talk about violence in that context? No. Didn't I specifically state what I was referring to? Yes I did, I was referring to beliefs that are sexists and homophobic. That's all. And yes a vast majority of Muslims do seem to appear sexist and homophobic. And you agreed with me on that, data supports that. Anything else you said is solely you bringing it up and arguing yourself.

You choose to ignore the alarming part of the data in favor of less alarming one indicates your bias too, sir. Even the less alarming number is still alarming - 19% of Muslims in the US said violence is justifiable to impose Sharia law in 2015. That is disturbing for me. Anyway we can agree to disagree. I prefer you not to further put words in my mouth.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
14-08-2016, 09:57 AM
RE: Can't criticize Islam among liberals?
(14-08-2016 07:21 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  For fuck's sake, Vosur, I'm aware of the numbers you're citing. But it's disingenuous. You're being an asshole and smirking at the "naive" liberal, as if I'm unaware of the problems in Muslim culture or overlooking them. Is that kind of dickery standard-issue among conservatives, or do you have to practice?
(14-08-2016 04:52 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  In what context? The Crusades are still very much on the minds of the Muslims (and, I believe, were the major factor that led to the rise in fundamentalism that destroyed the flowering culture of Muslim science, in the early 12th century) to the point that they still refer to Americans who go there for our military-backed economic interests by that term.
First, I'm not a conservative. Second, if you're aware of the facts, why do you keep trying to make these types of excuses for them? The Crusades did not lead to the rise of fundamentalism, that is a ridiculous caricature of the history surrounding these events. Do you think Muslims were peace-loving hippies back when their culture valued science and education? It was Muslim military aggression that caused the Crusades in the first place, for Christ's sake. They were barbarians back then as well, practicing (sexual) slavery and worse.

"By the end of the 11th century, Western Europe had emerged as a significant power in its own right, though it still lagged far other Mediterranean civilization such as that of the Byzantine Empire (formerly the eastern half of the Roman Empire) and the Islamic empire of the Middle East and North Africa. Meanwhile, Byzantium was losing considerable territory to the invading Seljuk Turks, who defeated the Byzantine Army at the battle of Manzikirt in 1071 and went on to gain control over much of Anatolia. After years of chaos and civil war, the general Alexius Comnenus seized the Byzantine throne in 1081 and consolidated control over the remaining empire as Emperor Alexius I.

In 1095, Alexius sent envoys to Pope Urban II asking for mercenary troops from the West to help confront the Turkish threat. Though relations between Christians in East and West had long been fractious, Alexius’ request came at a time when the situation was improving. In November 1095, at the Council of Clermont in southern France, the pope called on Western Christians to take up arms in order to aid the Byzantines and recapture the Holy Land from Muslim control. Pope Urban’s plea met with a tremendous response, both among lower levels of the military elite (who would form a new class of knights) as well as ordinary citizens; it was determined that those who joined the armed pilgrimage would wear a cross as a symbol of the Church."


Source: http://www.history.com/topics/crusades

(14-08-2016 07:21 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  You're citing to cultures which unfortunately have retained the barbaric patriarchal religion bullshit that Christian cultures (and more moderate Muslim cultures) have only recently shed. Other Muslims (and cultures) do not share that group, as in the half a billion who don't even fit into the "Sharia should rule" group, the 3/4ths of a billion (55%) who don't fit into the "do what the Quran says and stone people for adultery" group, and so on to the ever-smaller circles. There's no question that those cultures are fucked up, just as Christian culture was deeply fucked up by Biblical literalism for centuries.

Today, what percentage of Christians would still say that the Bible says a wife is to obey her husband?

Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything. - Ephesians 5:22-24 (for one example)

You'd still find high numbers who'd answer yes to that statement. Imagine what the percent who agreed with that number would have been, among Christians, only 50 years ago. So there goes the big circle. And if I asked a similar question of Christians, "Should we govern our societies according to the Ten Commandments?", what percent of them would answer yes?

I'll give you a hint. In a Public Policy Polling questionnaire, recently, 57% of Republicans answered that they would favor making Christianity the national religion, while another 13% "weren't sure".

(Republicans) Would you support or oppose establishing Christianity as the national religion?
57% Support establishing Christianity as thenational religion
30% Oppose establishing Christianity as the national religion
Not sure 13%


http://www.publicpolicypolling.com/pdf/2..._22415.pdf

I am not naive, nor do I make excuses for their ignorance and bigotry and violations of what I consider "unalienable" basic human rights in the name of religion... the difference between us is that I don't pretend that Muslims have a special monopoly on this brand of religious insanity. They just haven't been tempered by the influence of humanists in their cultures, in the way that Christianity experienced in the past few decades.

So fuck off with that "proving OP's point plenty" shit, man.
What you fail to realize is that the "But... but... but... Christians are also bad!" argument only works against people who are Christian themselves. I'm an atheist, I have no problem conceding that Muslims don't have a monopoly on religious insanity. Heck, I think it would be a weak argument even if I was a Christian because they don't fly airplanes into civilian buildings, they don't drive trucks through crowded streets, they don't go into gay bars and massacre dozens of people with a gun, they don't go on a killing spree when someone draws a caricature of Jesus and they don't blow themselves up in public. They also don't support the death penalty for adultery and apostasy by the hundreds of millions. I should mention that your study on Christian views is a very limited one. The study I cited is based on the views of Muslims around the world, yours is based on Christians in the US alone. You'll find that Christians in Europe have much more liberal views on social issues than their North American counterparts.

You'd have to go back centuries, not decades, to find Christians being this barbaric. Islam is centuries behind the Western world when it comes to equality and human rights issues. In any case, these attempts at equating the insanity of modern Christians with the insanity of modern Muslims are naive and misguided at best and purposefully dishonest at worst. There is simply no comparison between the two. The notable difference is that liberals don't come crawling out of the woodworks en masse whenever a Christian does something exceptionally bad to defend Christians against any and all generalizations and to make excuses for their barbaric views. You can see that double standard in action in the liberal media and on this forum almost every day. It's almost the same as with liberals frequently generalizing all cops as bad based on a few who abuse their power but defend Black Lives Matter against criticism when their members behave like violent savages.

[Image: 7oDSbD4.gif]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Vosur's post
14-08-2016, 10:18 AM
RE: Can't criticize Islam among liberals?
(14-08-2016 07:21 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  For fuck's sake, Vosur, I'm aware of the numbers you're citing. But it's disingenuous. You're being an asshole and smirking at the "naive" liberal, as if I'm unaware of the problems in Muslim culture or overlooking them. Is that kind of dickery standard-issue among conservatives, or do you have to practice?

You're citing to cultures which unfortunately have retained the barbaric patriarchal religion bullshit that Christian cultures (and more moderate Muslim cultures) have only recently shed. Other Muslims (and cultures) do not share that group, as in the half a billion who don't even fit into the "Sharia should rule" group, the 3/4ths of a billion (55%) who don't fit into the "do what the Quran says and stone people for adultery" group, and so on to the ever-smaller circles. There's no question that those cultures are fucked up, just as Christian culture was deeply fucked up by Biblical literalism for centuries.

Today, what percentage of Christians would still say that the Bible says a wife is to obey her husband?

Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything. - Ephesians 5:22-24 (for one example)

You'd still find high numbers who'd answer yes to that statement. Imagine what the percent who agreed with that number would have been, among Christians, only 50 years ago. So there goes the big circle. And if I asked a similar question of Christians, "Should we govern our societies according to the Ten Commandments?", what percent of them would answer yes?

I'll give you a hint. In a Public Policy Polling questionnaire, recently, 57% of Republicans answered that they would favor making Christianity the national religion, while another 13% "weren't sure".

(Republicans) Would you support or oppose establishing Christianity as the national religion?
57% Support establishing Christianity as thenational religion
30% Oppose establishing Christianity as the national religion
Not sure 13%


http://www.publicpolicypolling.com/pdf/2..._22415.pdf

I am not naive, nor do I make excuses for their ignorance and bigotry and violations of what I consider "unalienable" basic human rights in the name of religion... the difference between us is that I don't pretend that Muslims have a special monopoly on this brand of religious insanity. They just haven't been tempered by the influence of humanists in their cultures, in the way that Christianity experienced in the past few decades.

So fuck off with that "proving OP's point plenty" shit, man.

Rocket, that exactly is the problem.

You have fundamentalist Christians in American south who live in free western society for generations and generations and who didn't liberalize, who still hold their backward beliefs , who are against abortions, against homosexuality...... you still have people in US who can't even say that they are atheist because their is a strong possibility that they will be ostracized by their friends and family.
Yet, you seem to be confident that Muslim immigrants will liberalize , even tho they are in objectively much worst position to liberalize. In Europe they mostly live in self segregated communities , there is no jobs for them, no housing , no integration programs , most of them don't speak the language of the host country.

Biggest problem with integration is that what western societies have to offer,which is mostly personal freedoms, is not really that attractive to immigrants.

You are making a mistake in thinking that the values you hold to be objectively good are also considered good by everyone. There is a lot of people who don't think that personal freedoms are important or even beneficial.
Offering personal freedoms as an incitement to integrate to people who don't hold personal freedoms in high regard can only fail miserably.

When somebody from Afghanistan comes to Europe and he sees...high divorce rates, drunk people falling over each other on Friday night, prostitutes on the streets , promiscuity , women in miniskirts , gay people, people openly speaking against religion , people openly voicing their political beliefs ....he doesn't think "Hey , this is great, look how free those people are, I wan't to be a part of that"
No. He is disgusted by that. It doesn't change his mind, it reinforces his belief that his way is the correct way.

Yes, some of them will liberalize over generations , some of them never will or it will take waaaay too long , like with the Christian fundamentalist in American south.
Basically we are creating a bunch of enclaves of Islamic version of the Bible belt in the middle of Europe . Helping those people in their own countries would be much cheaper and much more effective, and it would avoid the negative effects of mass immigration.
Maybe it would be enough if western countries stopped robbing them of their natural resources. But then our gas would be more expensive and people wouldn't have the chance to show how progressive they are by holding "refugees welcome " signs.

. . . ................................ ......................................... . [Image: 2dsmnow.gif] Eat at Joe's
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Slowminded's post
14-08-2016, 10:45 AM
RE: Can't criticize Islam among liberals?
Islamic scholar Abbas Naderi Ph.D says:

"There are two aspects to being a Muslim:

1..The individualist aspect. It’s a relationship between human and God. One can be a Muslim between himself and God.
2..The collective aspect. It is a public announce of adhering to Islam.

A Muslim can be 1, 2 or both. A Muslim from the first category is typically not known as a Muslim by others. A Muslim from the second category is known as a Muslim in a community, even though s/he might not be a Muslim and might just pretend to be one.

The requirements of both, with respect to their dimension, are simple: admitting (either to self or community) that God is one and Mohammad is his prophet. That’s all.

Any random person in the world that admits that single sentence will be a Muslim, regardless of race, location, age or etc.

Plus, even though there is a correlation between Arabism and Islam, it is not the strongest correlation, let alone causation.

Roughly 75% of Arabs are Muslims, and roughly 15% of Muslims are Arabs. And less than 50% of Muslims live in Muslim majority countries."

—He was answering a question as to whether Islam is a race and/or a religion, and pointing out that it's solely a religion, and has nothing to do with race.

I'm a creationist... I believe that man created God.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes SYZ's post
14-11-2016, 08:54 AM (This post was last modified: 14-11-2016 10:14 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Can't criticize Islam among liberals?
(11-08-2016 11:17 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  I keep hearing this meme repeated, that "liberals" don't like anyone to criticize Islam. What bullshit.

I'm a liberal, and I criticize Islam the same as any religion. All religions are gullibility and brainwashing, and all have a history of making some people behave better and more humanely, while causing others to behave very dangerously.

However, when I see actual bigotry being expressed toward Muslims, or outright wrong statements about what Muslims think (or pretense that they all think like the extremists and/or those who were raised in the culture of fucked-up countries), especially for the purpose of suggesting that Muslims should be treated badly in some way or are not a part of our society, I will object.

Part of my liberalism is the fierce belief that we must all be free to believe whatever stupid shit we want, so long as we do not harm others. I have known many, many Muslims, and found all the ones I have known (in this not-quite-as-fucked-up country called the USA) to be overwhelmingly a group of kind, thoughtful people. I have also met a couple of Imams who make my skin crawl... but the same applies to Christians in every respect. [Edit to Add: I would point out that Christianity has a VERY recent shift toward more-liberal thinking, and that sodomy was only legalized in the United States in 2004, requiring a Supreme Court decision to do so, over the objections of Christian moralists in congress and in pulpits everywhere.]

And yet no one points to the fucked up views of extremist Christians (of whom we have many, here in the USA, from homophobic evangelicals to the Klan's "Church of Jesus Christ, Christian" denomination) and tries to suggest that all Christians should be suspect, or somehow excluded from society, because of their psychotic brethren.

That is how liberals see Islam and the Muslims who practice it, and why we attack those who step over the line from criticism into bigotry. Yes, there are a few extremists on the liberal side who call anything bigotry, and they annoy me as much as anyone else. But the meme that says we attack anyone who criticizes Islam is utter bullshit, designed only to silence those who are trying ensure we treat our fellow human beings humanely, with respect and dignity, even if they have stupid religious beliefs. That protects everyone who is of the "wrong belief", including us atheists (in the eyes of the majority theists around us).

Totally true.
We have (GWG and myself) strongly criticized Islam in many ways, many times, here and elsewhere, (he in his set of articles in the Resource Library), and before that, long ago, I made no exception for the idiocy of Islam.
http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...#pid169445
However, just like Christianity, the vast majority of a religion's adherents really don't know their own history, and historical development, nor have they probably even read their own holy books.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
14-11-2016, 10:03 AM
RE: Can't criticize Islam among liberals?
The error is in equating all people with:
1) a label they use for themselves (that happens to us a lot too)
2) their religion/political party in its entirety (I don't agree with many liberals about a variety of topics)
3) the extremist ends of their respective ideologies (I sure don't agree with people like Jill Stein for instance on many things)

But there are also a lot people that don't like religion of any kind being criticized and I imagine that those people lean more liberal than conservative. So it isn't the criticism of Islam that gets a reaction, it is the criticism of religion in general. The people who would likely be upset if you criticized Islam, would also be upset if your did the same for the Catholics or Buddhists or Hindus, etc.

Also, there are a lot of anti-Islam people out there that are also racist in the way they go about it.

I don't like Islam, I don't like Christianity, or any religion, but I can separate the person from the religion. People can't always separate themselves from their religion though. So while I will critique and mock religion (especially the zealots and extremists), I will remind myself that not all members of religion X are the same as the extremists or fundamentalists. It ends up being a very fine line though because people see an attack on "their" religion as a personal attack.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: