Can't say how sex evolved, therefore Adam and Eve
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04-06-2015, 08:14 AM
RE: Can't say how sex evolved, therefore Adam and Eve
(03-06-2015 11:52 AM)jennybee Wrote:  
(03-06-2015 11:47 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I read the article. Their eyes were opened to... what? The knowledge of good and evil IMO is the knowledge of disobedience, and then, by extension, religion.

They were naked and unashamed and then ashamed even though they were a joined couple.

Before eating the fruit--they looked at sexual organs the way you would look at a hand--in a non-lustful, sexual way. Their eyes were "closed" in that sense. Then, after eating the fruit, they became aware of their sexual organs, which brought about sexual feelings--causing their eyes to be "opened."

Help me understand your point better before I move on with this. You agree with the Chabad expositor. You think that (according to the text) the knowledge of GOOD and evil that came from eating the forbidden fruit was carnal knowledge? That they were opened to being sexual beings? That the devil, knowing this, was saying THIS is what would make them like God? That God had said they would die if they became sexual beings?

And finally, that before they ever had sex, which is also pre-Fall, that God told them at THAT time that they would cleave unto one another, creating men and women to become men and wives in sin?

Can you see why I feel that they were ashamed of their disobedience, and that moving from freedom to guilt and shame, they felt naked or exposed in more ways than as sexual beings?

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04-06-2015, 09:23 AM
RE: Can't say how sex evolved, therefore Adam and Eve
(04-06-2015 08:14 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(03-06-2015 11:52 AM)jennybee Wrote:  Before eating the fruit--they looked at sexual organs the way you would look at a hand--in a non-lustful, sexual way. Their eyes were "closed" in that sense. Then, after eating the fruit, they became aware of their sexual organs, which brought about sexual feelings--causing their eyes to be "opened."

Help me understand your point better before I move on with this. You agree with the Chabad expositor. You think that (according to the text) the knowledge of GOOD and evil that came from eating the forbidden fruit was carnal knowledge? That they were opened to being sexual beings? That the devil, knowing this, was saying THIS is what would make them like God? That God had said they would die if they became sexual beings?

And finally, that before they ever had sex, which is also pre-Fall, that God told them at THAT time that they would cleave unto one another, creating men and women to become men and wives in sin?

Can you see why I feel that they were ashamed of their disobedience, and that moving from freedom to guilt and shame, they felt naked or exposed in more ways than as sexual beings?

The knowledge of good and evil was the ability to understand that disobeying God was evil and obeying God was good. When they ate the fruit and disobeyed God, sin entered the world--not just sexual sin--all sin. But sexual sin was a part of that--i.e. lustful feelings and that is why their eyes were opened. It is referring to the idea of nakedness being lustful but also it is being used as a metaphor for all sin.
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04-06-2015, 10:39 AM
RE: Can't say how sex evolved, therefore Adam and Eve
(01-06-2015 12:00 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(28-05-2015 08:55 AM)Chas Wrote:  No. There is no Biblical support for that statement.

This is why I dislike arguing the Bible with you, Chas. You neither read it nor remember it.

Wrong on all counts. You don't like arguing it with me because I read what it says, not what I want it to say.

Quote:It sounds like you forgot completely that Eve was a part of Adam in a unique way, and that he called her the mother of the living, Eve. Without her, there would be no future progeny.

Adam was made before God even thought of making Eve, so you are wrong.

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04-06-2015, 10:53 AM
RE: Can't say how sex evolved, therefore Adam and Eve
(04-06-2015 10:39 AM)Chas Wrote:  Adam was made before God even thought of making Eve, so you are wrong.

Doesn't that depend on which of the two creation stories you read?

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04-06-2015, 12:17 PM
RE: Can't say how sex evolved, therefore Adam and Eve
(04-06-2015 10:53 AM)Free Thought Wrote:  
(04-06-2015 10:39 AM)Chas Wrote:  Adam was made before God even thought of making Eve, so you are wrong.

Doesn't that depend on which of the two creation stories you read?

That's a point. Consider

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05-06-2015, 10:45 AM
RE: Can't say how sex evolved, therefore Adam and Eve
(04-06-2015 09:23 AM)jennybee Wrote:  
(04-06-2015 08:14 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Help me understand your point better before I move on with this. You agree with the Chabad expositor. You think that (according to the text) the knowledge of GOOD and evil that came from eating the forbidden fruit was carnal knowledge? That they were opened to being sexual beings? That the devil, knowing this, was saying THIS is what would make them like God? That God had said they would die if they became sexual beings?

And finally, that before they ever had sex, which is also pre-Fall, that God told them at THAT time that they would cleave unto one another, creating men and women to become men and wives in sin?

Can you see why I feel that they were ashamed of their disobedience, and that moving from freedom to guilt and shame, they felt naked or exposed in more ways than as sexual beings?

The knowledge of good and evil was the ability to understand that disobeying God was evil and obeying God was good. When they ate the fruit and disobeyed God, sin entered the world--not just sexual sin--all sin. But sexual sin was a part of that--i.e. lustful feelings and that is why their eyes were opened. It is referring to the idea of nakedness being lustful but also it is being used as a metaphor for all sin.

I track with everything you're saying except that they couldn't have felt that lusting for one another was wrong since God had put them together as a couple. Their exposure--their nakedness before God--was the fruit of their disobedience. Like when the NT says, "Our sin is laid bare before the eyes of Him with whom we have to do..."

But I'm not trying to argue with you. We're quite close on this point.

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05-06-2015, 10:47 AM
RE: Can't say how sex evolved, therefore Adam and Eve
(04-06-2015 10:39 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(01-06-2015 12:00 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  This is why I dislike arguing the Bible with you, Chas. You neither read it nor remember it.

Wrong on all counts. You don't like arguing it with me because I read what it says, not what I want it to say.

Quote:It sounds like you forgot completely that Eve was a part of Adam in a unique way, and that he called her the mother of the living, Eve. Without her, there would be no future progeny.

Adam was made before God even thought of making Eve, so you are wrong.

You know I believe an omniscient God had foreknowledge that He would make Eve also, right? The Bible says that God knew the Fall would occur and so Jesus was "crucified before the world was made"--foreknowledge.

By the way, I found both terms we were discussing earlier in one verse in my daily devotions today:

"Marriage is honorable among all, and the bed undefiled; but fornicators and adulterers God will judge." - Heb 13:4

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05-06-2015, 03:12 PM
RE: Can't say how sex evolved, therefore Adam and Eve
(05-06-2015 10:47 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(04-06-2015 10:39 AM)Chas Wrote:  Wrong on all counts. You don't like arguing it with me because I read what it says, not what I want it to say.


Adam was made before God even thought of making Eve, so you are wrong.

You know I believe an omniscient God had foreknowledge that He would make Eve also, right? The Bible says that God knew the Fall would occur and so Jesus was "crucified before the world was made"--foreknowledge.

By the way, I found both terms we were discussing earlier in one verse in my daily devotions today:

"Marriage is honorable among all, and the bed undefiled; but fornicators and adulterers God will judge." - Heb 13:4

Yet an omniscient God asks his creations questions knowing them... and somehow has a purpose for TESTING a man like Abraham that he already knows the outcome for.

If he KNEW the fall would happen Adam and Eve Never had free will to not have the fall happen.

You can believe this god is real and omniscient all you want. You're only deceiving yourself to proclaim you have free will though if you believe it. Clearly all your descriptions keep showing a lack of free will. If God pre-chooses a fall will happen and decided already when you die. He is choosing when the bullet fires or misfires in a weak metaphorical sense as you tried to bring up before.

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05-06-2015, 03:37 PM
RE: Can't say how sex evolved, therefore Adam and Eve
(05-06-2015 10:47 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(04-06-2015 10:39 AM)Chas Wrote:  Wrong on all counts. You don't like arguing it with me because I read what it says, not what I want it to say.


Adam was made before God even thought of making Eve, so you are wrong.

You know I believe an omniscient God had foreknowledge that He would make Eve also, right? The Bible says that God knew the Fall would occur and so Jesus was "crucified before the world was made"--foreknowledge.

You believe all sorts of incoherent things. All three omnis lead to contradicitons, so it is not possible for any of them to actually exist.

Quote:By the way, I found both terms we were discussing earlier in one verse in my daily devotions today:

"Marriage is honorable among all, and the bed undefiled; but fornicators and adulterers God will judge." - Heb 13:4

Judged how? Judged on quality? Quantity? Style? Originality? Consider

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08-06-2015, 09:51 AM
RE: Can't say how sex evolved, therefore Adam and Eve
(05-06-2015 03:12 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  
(05-06-2015 10:47 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  You know I believe an omniscient God had foreknowledge that He would make Eve also, right? The Bible says that God knew the Fall would occur and so Jesus was "crucified before the world was made"--foreknowledge.

By the way, I found both terms we were discussing earlier in one verse in my daily devotions today:

"Marriage is honorable among all, and the bed undefiled; but fornicators and adulterers God will judge." - Heb 13:4

Yet an omniscient God asks his creations questions knowing them... and somehow has a purpose for TESTING a man like Abraham that he already knows the outcome for.

If he KNEW the fall would happen Adam and Eve Never had free will to not have the fall happen.

You can believe this god is real and omniscient all you want. You're only deceiving yourself to proclaim you have free will though if you believe it. Clearly all your descriptions keep showing a lack of free will. If God pre-chooses a fall will happen and decided already when you die. He is choosing when the bullet fires or misfires in a weak metaphorical sense as you tried to bring up before.

Socratic-styled teachers will often do an oral test or other test where other students can watch, and learn. The Bible says, "All these things happened to Bible personalities so that apart from us they would not be made perfect." The Bible speaks of examples. We've all experienced being questioned publicly in class by a teacher who knew we lacked an answer!

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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