Can't say how sex evolved, therefore Adam and Eve
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08-06-2015, 11:16 AM
RE: Can't say how sex evolved, therefore Adam and Eve
(05-06-2015 10:47 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(04-06-2015 10:39 AM)Chas Wrote:  Wrong on all counts. You don't like arguing it with me because I read what it says, not what I want it to say.


Adam was made before God even thought of making Eve, so you are wrong.

You know I believe an omniscient God had foreknowledge that He would make Eve also, right? The Bible says that God knew the Fall would occur and so Jesus was "crucified before the world was made"--foreknowledge.

By the way, I found both terms we were discussing earlier in one verse in my daily devotions today:

"Marriage is honorable among all, and the bed undefiled; but fornicators and adulterers God will judge." - Heb 13:4

....and here goes the point every Christian misses....this same "omniscient" god knew when he started his little creation exercise by making 400+ billion planets until he got at least one juuuuuuust right, then grabbed a handful of dirt and made man.....etc etc as per the fairy tale...when he planted the tree of knowledge he KNEW they would eat of it, and thus he KNEW they would violate his order, and KNEW this would create a self-fulfilled problem of "original sin" of which god demands atonement for, but....and get this folks...man can never pay that debt....so he KNEW he would have to slice off some holy ghost and stick it in an alleged virgin to become jesus the Christ, who would die for man's sin, thus fulfilling the incarnation and atonement theory, and giving man a way to wash themselves clean of this hand-me-down eternal sin, and enter heaven......HE KNEW all of this, so the causal of sin is god. He KNOWINGLY created this endless eternal BS sin theory, demanding of himself a sacrifice, of himself for himself...talk about narcissistic, and here we are today....all because this allegedly omniscient god wanted to play the temper tantrum throwing childish being who wanted abject worship and eternal hand wringing by his creations groveling for forgiveness for sin that he created by making it in the first place. If he KNEW it was all going to happen...then why bother, if he KNEW he would have to murder the entire planets inhabitants and save 8 to start over again, then why bother, why even make it rain, wiggle his 5th appendage and make every human drop dead, heck *poof* disappear...but no.....it just all sounds so......man made...so made up.....because it is.

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"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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08-06-2015, 08:53 PM
RE: Can't say how sex evolved, therefore Adam and Eve
Anybody seen the God meme that says:

Preaches forgiveness.
Loses his shit over an apple.
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08-06-2015, 09:16 PM
RE: Can't say how sex evolved, therefore Adam and Eve
(08-06-2015 09:51 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(05-06-2015 03:12 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  Yet an omniscient God asks his creations questions knowing them... and somehow has a purpose for TESTING a man like Abraham that he already knows the outcome for.

If he KNEW the fall would happen Adam and Eve Never had free will to not have the fall happen.

You can believe this god is real and omniscient all you want. You're only deceiving yourself to proclaim you have free will though if you believe it. Clearly all your descriptions keep showing a lack of free will. If God pre-chooses a fall will happen and decided already when you die. He is choosing when the bullet fires or misfires in a weak metaphorical sense as you tried to bring up before.

Socratic-styled teachers will often do an oral test or other test where other students can watch, and learn. The Bible says, "All these things happened to Bible personalities so that apart from us they would not be made perfect." The Bible speaks of examples. We've all experienced being questioned publicly in class by a teacher who knew we lacked an answer!

The form of Socratic questioning isn't because you already know. It's a matter of you not knowing and never being able to know that persons response. Showing someone how to unfold an idea by opening up the questioning.

You again are personifying God to be like a human interaction. You limit his omniscience by qualities a non-omniscient being needs to use.

You seem to deem that God giving a order/question to a man and letting him do it is not violating his free will... but why wouldn't god just make the result of the man that to begin with? It's literally not altering any course of action differently. But your type of reasoning seems to think that would violate free will. Yet anything God does can be limiting and violating a given free will.

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09-06-2015, 09:31 AM
RE: Can't say how sex evolved, therefore Adam and Eve
(08-06-2015 11:16 AM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  
(05-06-2015 10:47 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  You know I believe an omniscient God had foreknowledge that He would make Eve also, right? The Bible says that God knew the Fall would occur and so Jesus was "crucified before the world was made"--foreknowledge.

By the way, I found both terms we were discussing earlier in one verse in my daily devotions today:

"Marriage is honorable among all, and the bed undefiled; but fornicators and adulterers God will judge." - Heb 13:4

....and here goes the point every Christian misses....this same "omniscient" god knew when he started his little creation exercise by making 400+ billion planets until he got at least one juuuuuuust right, then grabbed a handful of dirt and made man.....etc etc as per the fairy tale...when he planted the tree of knowledge he KNEW they would eat of it, and thus he KNEW they would violate his order, and KNEW this would create a self-fulfilled problem of "original sin" of which god demands atonement for, but....and get this folks...man can never pay that debt....so he KNEW he would have to slice off some holy ghost and stick it in an alleged virgin to become jesus the Christ, who would die for man's sin, thus fulfilling the incarnation and atonement theory, and giving man a way to wash themselves clean of this hand-me-down eternal sin, and enter heaven......HE KNEW all of this, so the causal of sin is god. He KNOWINGLY created this endless eternal BS sin theory, demanding of himself a sacrifice, of himself for himself...talk about narcissistic, and here we are today....all because this allegedly omniscient god wanted to play the temper tantrum throwing childish being who wanted abject worship and eternal hand wringing by his creations groveling for forgiveness for sin that he created by making it in the first place. If he KNEW it was all going to happen...then why bother, if he KNEW he would have to murder the entire planets inhabitants and save 8 to start over again, then why bother, why even make it rain, wiggle his 5th appendage and make every human drop dead, heck *poof* disappear...but no.....it just all sounds so......man made...so made up.....because it is.

I actually agree with most of your post. To simplify it, however, I might add:

1. God made creatures that aren't God

2. Free will sentient creatures will do both right and wrong

3. God provided rewards for doing right and punishments for doing wrong

4. God provided a way to escape (some) punishments

Now, replace God with parents and you have:

1. Parents have children who aren't perfect, but they have them regardless, often, wanting to have them

2. Free will children do right and wrong

3. Parents offer incentives, rewards and corrections

4. Good parents work hard so their children will do well rather than be punished

But I would NOT add:

5. You see! Whenever a child does wrong, it's the parents who made them do it (so let's put parents in jail when their kids commit crimes)!

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09-06-2015, 09:33 AM
RE: Can't say how sex evolved, therefore Adam and Eve
(08-06-2015 09:16 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  
(08-06-2015 09:51 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Socratic-styled teachers will often do an oral test or other test where other students can watch, and learn. The Bible says, "All these things happened to Bible personalities so that apart from us they would not be made perfect." The Bible speaks of examples. We've all experienced being questioned publicly in class by a teacher who knew we lacked an answer!

The form of Socratic questioning isn't because you already know. It's a matter of you not knowing and never being able to know that persons response. Showing someone how to unfold an idea by opening up the questioning.

You again are personifying God to be like a human interaction. You limit his omniscience by qualities a non-omniscient being needs to use.

You seem to deem that God giving a order/question to a man and letting him do it is not violating his free will... but why wouldn't god just make the result of the man that to begin with? It's literally not altering any course of action differently. But your type of reasoning seems to think that would violate free will. Yet anything God does can be limiting and violating a given free will.

But it makes sense to personify, even at times, anthropomorphize, God:

1. We were uniquely created in His image

2. Jesus was God and man

See my "If God was a parent post above" and see Luke's genealogy

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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09-06-2015, 01:05 PM
RE: Can't say how sex evolved, therefore Adam and Eve
(09-06-2015 09:33 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(08-06-2015 09:16 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  The form of Socratic questioning isn't because you already know. It's a matter of you not knowing and never being able to know that persons response. Showing someone how to unfold an idea by opening up the questioning.

You again are personifying God to be like a human interaction. You limit his omniscience by qualities a non-omniscient being needs to use.

You seem to deem that God giving a order/question to a man and letting him do it is not violating his free will... but why wouldn't god just make the result of the man that to begin with? It's literally not altering any course of action differently. But your type of reasoning seems to think that would violate free will. Yet anything God does can be limiting and violating a given free will.

But it makes sense to personify, even at times, anthropomorphize, God:

1. We were uniquely created in His image

2. Jesus was God and man

See my "If God was a parent post above" and see Luke's genealogy

And your 2 point is a interesting assertion. How do you KNOW all free will sentient creatures will do both right and wrong? And based upon that statement, if you know that is true. That would mean you either know God is either not of free will, not a sentient creature, or does do wrong. Which is the case?

You're constantly making awful unless you admit your god is flawed like every parent because imperfection isn't possible in fluctuating social interaction. If you believed in a flawed or not omni- God who pre-determines when you die it'd be a lot more sensible. If being in God's image was more than visual, why aren't humans Omni- anything. Why wasn't Adam? To extrapolate that to mean more than it says is again not taking things literally. You're steep in hermeneutics that you think is the right way. If you think humanity is flawed, you should constantly not take anything for certain because you know you're likely to be flawed in your information.

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09-06-2015, 06:29 PM
RE: Can't say how sex evolved, therefore Adam and Eve
(09-06-2015 09:33 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(08-06-2015 09:16 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  The form of Socratic questioning isn't because you already know. It's a matter of you not knowing and never being able to know that persons response. Showing someone how to unfold an idea by opening up the questioning.

You again are personifying God to be like a human interaction. You limit his omniscience by qualities a non-omniscient being needs to use.

You seem to deem that God giving a order/question to a man and letting him do it is not violating his free will... but why wouldn't god just make the result of the man that to begin with? It's literally not altering any course of action differently. But your type of reasoning seems to think that would violate free will. Yet anything God does can be limiting and violating a given free will.

But it makes sense to personify, even at times, anthropomorphize, God:

1. We were uniquely created in His image

2. Jesus was God and man

See my "If God was a parent post above" and see Luke's genealogy

Luke's genealogy?

That says Jewsus was the son of Joseph. Did Luke not include the whole "virgin birth" bit present in the others? If he did, I'm pretty sure that invalidates the genealogy at the base level.

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10-06-2015, 07:41 AM
RE: Can't say how sex evolved, therefore Adam and Eve
(09-06-2015 06:29 PM)Free Thought Wrote:  
(09-06-2015 09:33 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  But it makes sense to personify, even at times, anthropomorphize, God:

1. We were uniquely created in His image

2. Jesus was God and man

See my "If God was a parent post above" and see Luke's genealogy

Luke's genealogy?

That says Jewsus was the son of Joseph. Did Luke not include the whole "virgin birth" bit present in the others? If he did, I'm pretty sure that invalidates the genealogy at the base level.

The reference to Luke's genealogy was to Adam being the son of God, God being Adam's parent. It's a complete scene as Jesus on the other end of the geneaology is God.

There is no contradiction. It says "Jesus was supposedly Joseph's son" and one genealogy gives Joseph's lineage to King David. The other, Mary's lineage. Jesus was the titular holder of the kingship via his adoptive father Joseph. He was the virgin prophesied Davidic King via his mother, Mary.

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10-06-2015, 07:46 AM
RE: Can't say how sex evolved, therefore Adam and Eve
(09-06-2015 01:05 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  
(09-06-2015 09:33 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  But it makes sense to personify, even at times, anthropomorphize, God:

1. We were uniquely created in His image

2. Jesus was God and man

See my "If God was a parent post above" and see Luke's genealogy

And your 2 point is a interesting assertion. How do you KNOW all free will sentient creatures will do both right and wrong? And based upon that statement, if you know that is true. That would mean you either know God is either not of free will, not a sentient creature, or does do wrong. Which is the case?

You're constantly making awful unless you admit your god is flawed like every parent because imperfection isn't possible in fluctuating social interaction. If you believed in a flawed or not omni- God who pre-determines when you die it'd be a lot more sensible. If being in God's image was more than visual, why aren't humans Omni- anything. Why wasn't Adam? To extrapolate that to mean more than it says is again not taking things literally. You're steep in hermeneutics that you think is the right way. If you think humanity is flawed, you should constantly not take anything for certain because you know you're likely to be flawed in your information.

Jesus died to redeem the whole creation. Jesus died to save human sinners also. If you know any humans besides Jesus who only ever do right and have never done or do wrong, I'd be surprised. I think that fact, that all people have both free will and sometimes do the right thing and sometimes don't speaks eloquently of the need for redemption and also, substitutionary atonement.

I'd disagree respectfully with your second point that my knowledge of God is tainted in whole because I do wrong. It's not wrong to want to both read and obey the Bible, and God answers that in the main with accurate knowledge.

Again, God has foreknowledge that all humans do wrong. You must admit, also, all humans do wrong. Once you understand Jesus died and rose to do what we cannot, cover our imperfection, rather than focus on religious practice or trying to do good (since we CAN do good but will always be imperfect) the atonement will make more sense to you than before.

Thanks.

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10-06-2015, 11:03 AM
RE: Can't say how sex evolved, therefore Adam and Eve
(10-06-2015 07:41 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  There is no contradiction. It says "Jesus was supposedly Joseph's son" and one genealogy gives Joseph's lineage to King David. The other, Mary's lineage. Jesus was the titular holder of the kingship via his adoptive father Joseph. He was the virgin prophesied Davidic King via his mother, Mary.

Wrong Bro, they are both Joseph's lineage

Quote:Matthew 1
15 Elihud the father of Eleazar,
Eleazar the father of Matthan,
Matthan the father of Jacob,
16 and Jacob the father of Joseph, the husband of Mary, and Mary was the mother of Jesus who is called the Messiah.

This is clearly the lineage of Joseph.

Quote: Luke 3
23 Now Jesus himself was about thirty years old when he began his ministry. He was the son, so it was thought, of Joseph,
the son of Heli,
24 the son of Matthat,
the son of Levi, the son of Melki,
the son of Jannai, the son of Joseph,
25 the son of Mattathias, the son of Amos,
the son of Nahum, the son of Esli,
the son of Naggai,

ALSO the genealogy of Joseph. Both are referring to Joseph, a man, and Joseph's lineage is different in each account. They are talking about the same guy. He can't have 2 different genealogies.

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