Can't say how sex evolved, therefore Adam and Eve
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10-06-2015, 05:58 PM
RE: Can't say how sex evolved, therefore Adam and Eve
(10-06-2015 11:03 AM)The Organic Chemist Wrote:  
(10-06-2015 07:41 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  There is no contradiction. It says "Jesus was supposedly Joseph's son" and one genealogy gives Joseph's lineage to King David. The other, Mary's lineage. Jesus was the titular holder of the kingship via his adoptive father Joseph. He was the virgin prophesied Davidic King via his mother, Mary.

Wrong Bro, they are both Joseph's lineage

Quote:Matthew 1
15 Elihud the father of Eleazar,
Eleazar the father of Matthan,
Matthan the father of Jacob,
16 and Jacob the father of Joseph, the husband of Mary, and Mary was the mother of Jesus who is called the Messiah.

This is clearly the lineage of Joseph.

Quote: Luke 3
23 Now Jesus himself was about thirty years old when he began his ministry. He was the son, so it was thought, of Joseph,
the son of Heli,
24 the son of Matthat,
the son of Levi, the son of Melki,
the son of Jannai, the son of Joseph,
25 the son of Mattathias, the son of Amos,
the son of Nahum, the son of Esli,
the son of Naggai,

ALSO the genealogy of Joseph. Both are referring to Joseph, a man, and Joseph's lineage is different in each account. They are talking about the same guy. He can't have 2 different genealogies.

And the convoluted, ad hoc, totally artificial reasons why one is Mary's in 3...2...1...

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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10-06-2015, 06:11 PM
RE: Can't say how sex evolved, therefore Adam and Eve
(10-06-2015 07:46 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(09-06-2015 01:05 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  And your 2 point is a interesting assertion. How do you KNOW all free will sentient creatures will do both right and wrong? And based upon that statement, if you know that is true. That would mean you either know God is either not of free will, not a sentient creature, or does do wrong. Which is the case?

You're constantly making awful unless you admit your god is flawed like every parent because imperfection isn't possible in fluctuating social interaction. If you believed in a flawed or not omni- God who pre-determines when you die it'd be a lot more sensible. If being in God's image was more than visual, why aren't humans Omni- anything. Why wasn't Adam? To extrapolate that to mean more than it says is again not taking things literally. You're steep in hermeneutics that you think is the right way. If you think humanity is flawed, you should constantly not take anything for certain because you know you're likely to be flawed in your information.

Jesus died to redeem the whole creation. Jesus died to save human sinners also. If you know any humans besides Jesus who only ever do right and have never done or do wrong, I'd be surprised. I think that fact, that all people have both free will and sometimes do the right thing and sometimes don't speaks eloquently of the need for redemption and also, substitutionary atonement.

I'd disagree respectfully with your second point that my knowledge of God is tainted in whole because I do wrong. It's not wrong to want to both read and obey the Bible, and God answers that in the main with accurate knowledge.

Again, God has foreknowledge that all humans do wrong. You must admit, also, all humans do wrong. Once you understand Jesus died and rose to do what we cannot, cover our imperfection, rather than focus on religious practice or trying to do good (since we CAN do good but will always be imperfect) the atonement will make more sense to you than before.

Thanks.

You keep somehow ignoring the elements here of GOD's power. Does God have fee will himself to do wrong or not?

It's not that you knowledge is wrong, it can be wrong and to have immense confidence YOUR reading of the bible is the correct one is ignorant. It's ignoring your fallible God given nature and it's pretty shameful to that god to proclaim you have it right at any point. You think other people read or interpret it wrong; That means it's quite possible anyone including you can always be wrong about it.

How do you proclaim Jesus did no wrong? Is the standard, if Jesus did it, it's not wrong? Is not harming people wrong? Is splitting families wrong? Is not chasing people with a whip wrong? You're manipulating yourself to believe everything is good by a being that is full of harm.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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11-06-2015, 09:43 AM
RE: Can't say how sex evolved, therefore Adam and Eve
(10-06-2015 11:03 AM)The Organic Chemist Wrote:  
(10-06-2015 07:41 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  There is no contradiction. It says "Jesus was supposedly Joseph's son" and one genealogy gives Joseph's lineage to King David. The other, Mary's lineage. Jesus was the titular holder of the kingship via his adoptive father Joseph. He was the virgin prophesied Davidic King via his mother, Mary.

Wrong Bro, they are both Joseph's lineage

Quote:Matthew 1
15 Elihud the father of Eleazar,
Eleazar the father of Matthan,
Matthan the father of Jacob,
16 and Jacob the father of Joseph, the husband of Mary, and Mary was the mother of Jesus who is called the Messiah.

This is clearly the lineage of Joseph.

Quote: Luke 3
23 Now Jesus himself was about thirty years old when he began his ministry. He was the son, so it was thought, of Joseph,
the son of Heli,
24 the son of Matthat,
the son of Levi, the son of Melki,
the son of Jannai, the son of Joseph,
25 the son of Mattathias, the son of Amos,
the son of Nahum, the son of Esli,
the son of Naggai,

ALSO the genealogy of Joseph. Both are referring to Joseph, a man, and Joseph's lineage is different in each account. They are talking about the same guy. He can't have 2 different genealogies.

No, but the reasons why give more insight into Jesus's pedigree:

1. Adopted children had all rights and inheritances. Joseph's eldest, the crown winner, would be Jesus.

2. There were no in-laws. Your mother-in-law and father-in-law were mom and dad also.

One listing is through Joseph's dad through David via Solomon. One is through Mary's dad through David via Nathan. They were from different branches of David's line. ONLY via adoption of a different Davidic son than Solomon could the two prophecies complete:

1. David's direct descendant would be King forever.

2. David's direct descendants through Solomon would be cut off from the kingship.

Joseph could have walked into the temple grounds, gone through the genealogies and be declared king. He passed the title to his oldest, Jesus.

The "contradiction" is a skeptic's canard that can be wearisome to explain, but as with all/most heresies and bad interpretations, someone is reading one verse or two and jumping to conclusions, not really caring if the rest of the Word of God bears the answer.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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11-06-2015, 09:52 AM
RE: Can't say how sex evolved, therefore Adam and Eve
(10-06-2015 06:11 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  
(10-06-2015 07:46 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Jesus died to redeem the whole creation. Jesus died to save human sinners also. If you know any humans besides Jesus who only ever do right and have never done or do wrong, I'd be surprised. I think that fact, that all people have both free will and sometimes do the right thing and sometimes don't speaks eloquently of the need for redemption and also, substitutionary atonement.

I'd disagree respectfully with your second point that my knowledge of God is tainted in whole because I do wrong. It's not wrong to want to both read and obey the Bible, and God answers that in the main with accurate knowledge.

Again, God has foreknowledge that all humans do wrong. You must admit, also, all humans do wrong. Once you understand Jesus died and rose to do what we cannot, cover our imperfection, rather than focus on religious practice or trying to do good (since we CAN do good but will always be imperfect) the atonement will make more sense to you than before.

Thanks.

You keep somehow ignoring the elements here of GOD's power. Does God have fee will himself to do wrong or not?

It's not that you knowledge is wrong, it can be wrong and to have immense confidence YOUR reading of the bible is the correct one is ignorant. It's ignoring your fallible God given nature and it's pretty shameful to that god to proclaim you have it right at any point. You think other people read or interpret it wrong; That means it's quite possible anyone including you can always be wrong about it.

How do you proclaim Jesus did no wrong? Is the standard, if Jesus did it, it's not wrong? Is not harming people wrong? Is splitting families wrong? Is not chasing people with a whip wrong? You're manipulating yourself to believe everything is good by a being that is full of harm.

1. To me it is irrelevant whether God has free will to do wrong. He only does right, and this proceeds from His nature. I do right and wrong, proceeding from my nature.

2. I could be wrong about any variety of Bible doctrines, yes. Let me tell you what I do to help myself in this regard:

* Study ancient languages - I have a university year of Greek and read often about Hebrew and Chaldean terms and ideas

* I've read the entire Bible multiple times in multiple versions

* I talk to people about various doctrines around a dozen times weekly

* I participate in outreaches frequently to people with wholly different views on my doctrines including atheists, Mormons, JWs, Catholics, Jews - I even had talks with three Muslims last week

* I pick apart every sermon as I hear it from whatever source and discuss and coach future sermons of mine and others with the sermonizers

* Etc.

Based on the above, do you think I find my doctrinal views more accurate than the average TTA member? Are they doing the above?

**

No, Jesus did only right. Which families did he split? He said, "Trusting in me will cause families to argue or even set parents against children," but so would any free will dispensation allowing, say, a Christian parent to have an atheist son. If the atheist curses their parent, did Jesus MAKE them do so?

The other objections you have could be addressed in similar ways.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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11-06-2015, 10:26 AM
RE: Can't say how sex evolved, therefore Adam and Eve
(11-06-2015 09:43 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(10-06-2015 11:03 AM)The Organic Chemist Wrote:  Wrong Bro, they are both Joseph's lineage


This is clearly the lineage of Joseph.


ALSO the genealogy of Joseph. Both are referring to Joseph, a man, and Joseph's lineage is different in each account. They are talking about the same guy. He can't have 2 different genealogies.

No, but the reasons why give more insight into Jesus's pedigree:

1. Adopted children had all rights and inheritances. Joseph's eldest, the crown winner, would be Jesus.

2. There were no in-laws. Your mother-in-law and father-in-law were mom and dad also.

One listing is through Joseph's dad through David via Solomon. One is through Mary's dad through David via Nathan. They were from different branches of David's line. ONLY via adoption of a different Davidic son than Solomon could the two prophecies complete:

1. David's direct descendant would be King forever.

2. David's direct descendants through Solomon would be cut off from the kingship.

Joseph could have walked into the temple grounds, gone through the genealogies and be declared king. He passed the title to his oldest, Jesus.

The "contradiction" is a skeptic's canard that can be wearisome to explain, but as with all/most heresies and bad interpretations, someone is reading one verse or two and jumping to conclusions, not really caring if the rest of the Word of God bears the answer.

And you wonder why we laugh at you.

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The very idea of God is a product of the human imagination."
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15-06-2015, 10:07 AM
RE: Can't say how sex evolved, therefore Adam and Eve
(11-06-2015 10:26 AM)The Organic Chemist Wrote:  
(11-06-2015 09:43 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  No, but the reasons why give more insight into Jesus's pedigree:

1. Adopted children had all rights and inheritances. Joseph's eldest, the crown winner, would be Jesus.

2. There were no in-laws. Your mother-in-law and father-in-law were mom and dad also.

One listing is through Joseph's dad through David via Solomon. One is through Mary's dad through David via Nathan. They were from different branches of David's line. ONLY via adoption of a different Davidic son than Solomon could the two prophecies complete:

1. David's direct descendant would be King forever.

2. David's direct descendants through Solomon would be cut off from the kingship.

Joseph could have walked into the temple grounds, gone through the genealogies and be declared king. He passed the title to his oldest, Jesus.

The "contradiction" is a skeptic's canard that can be wearisome to explain, but as with all/most heresies and bad interpretations, someone is reading one verse or two and jumping to conclusions, not really caring if the rest of the Word of God bears the answer.

And you wonder why we laugh at you.

[Image: 9c9094a3847e822dc260367d0b5829c1096d3a1c...2faa70.jpg]

I don't wonder at all. The NT says skeptics will find substitutionary atonement and the gospel ludicrous. I find the laughter echoes the love I try to show on these boards. I don't laugh, however, at police when they find lost people!

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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15-06-2015, 10:09 AM
RE: Can't say how sex evolved, therefore Adam and Eve
(15-06-2015 10:07 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I don't laugh, however, at police when they find lost people!

What does this even mean?

NOTE: Member, Tomasia uses this site to slander other individuals. He then later proclaims it a joke, but not in public.
I will call him a liar and a dog here and now.
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15-06-2015, 11:03 AM
RE: Can't say how sex evolved, therefore Adam and Eve
(11-06-2015 09:52 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(10-06-2015 06:11 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  You keep somehow ignoring the elements here of GOD's power. Does God have fee will himself to do wrong or not?

It's not that you knowledge is wrong, it can be wrong and to have immense confidence YOUR reading of the bible is the correct one is ignorant. It's ignoring your fallible God given nature and it's pretty shameful to that god to proclaim you have it right at any point. You think other people read or interpret it wrong; That means it's quite possible anyone including you can always be wrong about it.

How do you proclaim Jesus did no wrong? Is the standard, if Jesus did it, it's not wrong? Is not harming people wrong? Is splitting families wrong? Is not chasing people with a whip wrong? You're manipulating yourself to believe everything is good by a being that is full of harm.

1. To me it is irrelevant whether God has free will to do wrong. He only does right, and this proceeds from His nature. I do right and wrong, proceeding from my nature.

2. I could be wrong about any variety of Bible doctrines, yes. Let me tell you what I do to help myself in this regard:

* Study ancient languages - I have a university year of Greek and read often about Hebrew and Chaldean terms and ideas

* I've read the entire Bible multiple times in multiple versions

* I talk to people about various doctrines around a dozen times weekly

* I participate in outreaches frequently to people with wholly different views on my doctrines including atheists, Mormons, JWs, Catholics, Jews - I even had talks with three Muslims last week

* I pick apart every sermon as I hear it from whatever source and discuss and coach future sermons of mine and others with the sermonizers

* Etc.

Based on the above, do you think I find my doctrinal views more accurate than the average TTA member? Are they doing the above?

**

No, Jesus did only right. Which families did he split? He said, "Trusting in me will cause families to argue or even set parents against children," but so would any free will dispensation allowing, say, a Christian parent to have an atheist son. If the atheist curses their parent, did Jesus MAKE them do so?

The other objections you have could be addressed in similar ways.

Q

Point 1: Have any proof/evidence for God's nature or even your own? This is separate from your belief that a god exists. I'll let you pass on that burden for now since you've had hundreds of posts with which to provide evidence for that claim. What I'd rather you do is provide your proof for the nature of your deity and why your nature is different?

Point 2: One whole year of University level Greek? Well shit, that makes you a scholar. Now I'll set aside my meanness and respond seriously that I am glad you understand that multiple points of view are necessary in understanding anything in this universe. It is just too bad your mind is so "washed" that you selectively filter out or inappropriately discount the massive amount of evidence contrary to your worldview. If you are as intelligent as you claim, maybe one day the big picture will fit together for you and you can cast aside the shackles of an iron age fairy tale.

Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored- Aldous Huxley
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16-06-2015, 08:36 AM
RE: Can't say how sex evolved, therefore Adam and Eve
(15-06-2015 10:09 AM)Banjo Wrote:  
(15-06-2015 10:07 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I don't laugh, however, at police when they find lost people!

What does this even mean?

It means one might laugh at the gospel, but being lost then found is no laughing matter. You laughing at a born again Christian is like laughing at emergency response personnel during dangerous events.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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16-06-2015, 08:39 AM
RE: Can't say how sex evolved, therefore Adam and Eve
(15-06-2015 11:03 AM)devilsadvoc8 Wrote:  
(11-06-2015 09:52 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  1. To me it is irrelevant whether God has free will to do wrong. He only does right, and this proceeds from His nature. I do right and wrong, proceeding from my nature.

2. I could be wrong about any variety of Bible doctrines, yes. Let me tell you what I do to help myself in this regard:

* Study ancient languages - I have a university year of Greek and read often about Hebrew and Chaldean terms and ideas

* I've read the entire Bible multiple times in multiple versions

* I talk to people about various doctrines around a dozen times weekly

* I participate in outreaches frequently to people with wholly different views on my doctrines including atheists, Mormons, JWs, Catholics, Jews - I even had talks with three Muslims last week

* I pick apart every sermon as I hear it from whatever source and discuss and coach future sermons of mine and others with the sermonizers

* Etc.

Based on the above, do you think I find my doctrinal views more accurate than the average TTA member? Are they doing the above?

**

No, Jesus did only right. Which families did he split? He said, "Trusting in me will cause families to argue or even set parents against children," but so would any free will dispensation allowing, say, a Christian parent to have an atheist son. If the atheist curses their parent, did Jesus MAKE them do so?

The other objections you have could be addressed in similar ways.

Q

Point 1: Have any proof/evidence for God's nature or even your own? This is separate from your belief that a god exists. I'll let you pass on that burden for now since you've had hundreds of posts with which to provide evidence for that claim. What I'd rather you do is provide your proof for the nature of your deity and why your nature is different?

Point 2: One whole year of University level Greek? Well shit, that makes you a scholar. Now I'll set aside my meanness and respond seriously that I am glad you understand that multiple points of view are necessary in understanding anything in this universe. It is just too bad your mind is so "washed" that you selectively filter out or inappropriately discount the massive amount of evidence contrary to your worldview. If you are as intelligent as you claim, maybe one day the big picture will fit together for you and you can cast aside the shackles of an iron age fairy tale.

Point 1: What is the necessity of providing evidence for my existence? Do you have such evidence beyond your personal claim of self-evident existence? We have two witnesses for your existence, yourself and myself. I am submitting multiple evidences for God's existence in history, cosmology, teleology - and both God and I know He exists.

Point 2: I don't in any way "block out" contrary evidence. When someone makes a point regarding geology or radiometric dating or what have you, I do some research, and I think about it.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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