Can't say how sex evolved, therefore Adam and Eve
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27-05-2015, 11:01 AM
RE: Can't say how sex evolved, therefore Adam and Eve
(27-05-2015 10:56 AM)jennybee Wrote:  
(27-05-2015 10:50 AM)The Organic Chemist Wrote:  Ok, lets turn this around. Let's say that they didn't eat the magic apple. By your statement, there would be no death but reproduction. So what was the plan? Furthermore, why dod god later forbid sex during menstration and call women "unclean" during this process? Or are you suggesting that the magic apple caused all of this as well?

If they didn't eat the magic fruit--there would be no reproduction either since they would not have been attracted to each other in a sexual way. After eating the fruit, they noticed each other in a sexual way, before that---no sexual interest.

Perhaps. I think he was insinuating that we have an innate attraction to each other. It doesn't really say in genesis so I imagine Q will just shoehorn in something that he thinks will make his case.

"If we are honest—and scientists have to be—we must admit that religion is a jumble of false assertions, with no basis in reality.
The very idea of God is a product of the human imagination."
- Paul Dirac
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27-05-2015, 11:01 AM
RE: Can't say how sex evolved, therefore Adam and Eve
(27-05-2015 10:02 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(26-05-2015 03:29 PM)Reltzik Wrote:  .... how is "there is homosexuality, asexuality, fetishes, and k-selection" at all relevant to the original "gotcha" question about whether sexual reproduction could have come about in the context of evolutionary theory? It's almost as if you somehow missed (despite it being in the very first paragraph and outright quoted) that I was addressing a specific, clearly-identified criticism of evolutionary theory. How about I speak highly to you of first actually understanding what a post is about if you're going to care enough about it to reply to it?

The reply would include:

Obviously the person you were first responding to isn't a careful thinker. Stupid and smart people can be saved both, sorry you pulled one and not the other.

Obviously modern evolutionary science accounts for aberrations and difficulties. Yet I was not pointing to merely the genetic pooling of two in producing offspring or the challenges of mating, but the exceptionally lengthy periods of gestation and child rearing, etc. The Bible has an answer for everything important, including this issue (and the one I'm about to answer below). That's all.

Actually, human gestation period is on the low side for mammals of our size. Humans need to be born earlier in the developmental process so that our relatively large craniums can fit through the birth canal, especially after the pelvic changes forced by upright walking, and it is partially because of this early birth that our first few months are periods of such extreme dependency relative to, say, a lamb who is a toddler within a few hours of birth. It's one of the huge evolutionary disadvantages forced upon us by our large brains (along with increased calorie requirements and a proclivity for inventing new ways to kill each other).

But more than that, lengthy periods of child rearing are typical for k-selected species such as ourselves. If you're not familiar with the term, k-selection refers to a reproductive "strategy" of quality over quantity. Some species, such as salmon, produce a very large number of offspring per mating pair, each with very low odds of surviving to a reproductive age themselves. These are known as r-selected species. When the parents can provide any nurturing or care for their offspring at all, it must of necessity be short-term and spread wide over the large brood, and so the offspring must quickly fend for themselves. At the other extreme, k-selected species have very few offspring, but those offspring have a much higher chance of surviving to reproduce. Because each individual offspring is much more important to the parent's genetic survival, it is necessary for the parents to lavish a large degree of care upon the offspring, and their instincts will reflect that. Both strategies have advantages and disadvantages, and both are perfectly viable for certain evolutionary niches but not others. Any species that evolved with the capacity to learn the way humans do would likely need considerable rearing to take advantage of that capacity, and so they would need to be k-selected. In short, humans are not a deviation from this pattern. They are part of it, and the k-selection traits you cited are perfectly well explained under evolutionary theory. There's no gap here for your god to explain, even if claiming a god could explain a gap in the first place.
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27-05-2015, 11:04 AM
RE: Can't say how sex evolved, therefore Adam and Eve
(27-05-2015 10:57 AM)Timber1025 Wrote:  
(27-05-2015 10:03 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  God made sex and sexual pleasure, bless Him! He married Adam to Eve. They were naked and unashamed. I bet they figured stuff out right quick! You're here, aren't you? Smile

But...but evolution? You are openly pro-evolution and, well....this is what comes from your brain concerning human origins? Few questions there laughing boy:

How do you know sex was pleasing to the all-time power couple?
Were they married or just in for a hookup?
How do you know there was no shame?
How old were they?
Did they know how to carry and birth a child safely?
Do you plan to grow up into a responsible adult anytime soon?

Additionally, did Eve invent the blowjob before or after the magic apple? What if adam was into pegging before the magical interloper? Would that still make it a sin?

"If we are honest—and scientists have to be—we must admit that religion is a jumble of false assertions, with no basis in reality.
The very idea of God is a product of the human imagination."
- Paul Dirac
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27-05-2015, 11:07 AM
RE: Can't say how sex evolved, therefore Adam and Eve
(27-05-2015 11:01 AM)The Organic Chemist Wrote:  
(27-05-2015 10:56 AM)jennybee Wrote:  If they didn't eat the magic fruit--there would be no reproduction either since they would not have been attracted to each other in a sexual way. After eating the fruit, they noticed each other in a sexual way, before that---no sexual interest.

Perhaps. I think he was insinuating that we have an innate attraction to each other. It doesn't really say in genesis so I imagine Q will just shoehorn in something that he thinks will make his case.

I hear what you are saying. When I read it (and obviously the Bible is open to anyone's interpretation lol) it says that they were naked and felt no shame after God made them (meaning not aware of each other's sexual organs). Then after eating the fruit, their eyes were opened and they knew they were nekkid.

"Let the waters settle and you will see the moon and stars mirrored in your own being." -Rumi
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27-05-2015, 11:10 AM
RE: Can't say how sex evolved, therefore Adam and Eve
(27-05-2015 11:04 AM)The Organic Chemist Wrote:  
(27-05-2015 10:57 AM)Timber1025 Wrote:  But...but evolution? You are openly pro-evolution and, well....this is what comes from your brain concerning human origins? Few questions there laughing boy:

How do you know sex was pleasing to the all-time power couple?
Were they married or just in for a hookup?
How do you know there was no shame?
How old were they?
Did they know how to carry and birth a child safely?
Do you plan to grow up into a responsible adult anytime soon?

Additionally, did Eve invent the blowjob before or after the magic apple? What if adam was into pegging before the magical interloper? Would that still make it a sin?

Well they obviously were inexperienced, so there must have been a whole bunch of sinful experimentation before they figured out how and when eve could become pregnant. And they likely needed to get their parts warmed up from idle first.

“Truth does not demand belief. Scientists do not join hands every Sunday, singing, yes, gravity is real! I will have faith! I will be strong! I believe in my heart that what goes up, up, up, must come down, down, down. Amen! If they did, we would think they were pretty insecure about it.”
— Dan Barker —
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27-05-2015, 11:22 AM
RE: Can't say how sex evolved, therefore Adam and Eve
Yabut, what I really wanted to know is how the hell do porcupines have sex...

How do porcupines mate?

Teehee!

I just wanted to let you know that I love you even though you aren't naked right now. Heart
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27-05-2015, 11:29 AM
RE: Can't say how sex evolved, therefore Adam and Eve
(27-05-2015 11:22 AM)TurkeyBurner Wrote:  Yabut, what I really wanted to know is how the hell do porcupines have sex...

How do porcupines mate?

Teehee!

Very carefully Tongue

"Let the waters settle and you will see the moon and stars mirrored in your own being." -Rumi
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27-05-2015, 11:38 AM
RE: Can't say how sex evolved, therefore Adam and Eve
On a bizarre note...Isabella Rossellini has a BIZARRE video series on animals mating called Green Porno. It's not a porno, despite the name--it's a video series on how animals mate.

"Let the waters settle and you will see the moon and stars mirrored in your own being." -Rumi
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27-05-2015, 12:15 PM
RE: Can't say how sex evolved, therefore Adam and Eve
(27-05-2015 10:02 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(26-05-2015 03:29 PM)Reltzik Wrote:  .... how is "there is homosexuality, asexuality, fetishes, and k-selection" at all relevant to the original "gotcha" question about whether sexual reproduction could have come about in the context of evolutionary theory? It's almost as if you somehow missed (despite it being in the very first paragraph and outright quoted) that I was addressing a specific, clearly-identified criticism of evolutionary theory. How about I speak highly to you of first actually understanding what a post is about if you're going to care enough about it to reply to it?

The reply would include:

Obviously the person you were first responding to isn't a careful thinker. Stupid and smart people can be saved both, sorry you pulled one and not the other.

Obviously modern evolutionary science accounts for aberrations and difficulties. Yet I was not pointing to merely the genetic pooling of two in producing offspring or the challenges of mating, but the exceptionally lengthy periods of gestation and child rearing, etc. The Bible has an answer for everything important, including this issue (and the one I'm about to answer below). That's all.

Except there is the nagging little detail that humans are not the only organism with two sexes. Consider

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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27-05-2015, 01:43 PM
RE: Can't say how sex evolved, therefore Adam and Eve
(27-05-2015 10:03 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(27-05-2015 08:18 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  How did Adam and Eve even figure out how to have sex? Perhaps there is no sex at all and it's just an illusion. I'm pretty sure it is, that's what I have to tell myself at least since it's been awhile since I've tested if it's an illusion or not Weeping

God made sex and sexual pleasure, bless Him! He married Adam to Eve. They were naked and unashamed. I bet they figured stuff out right quick! You're here, aren't you? Smile

Was this after Adam fucked all the animals, birds, and fish in sea and found them inadequate?

Please site the exact verse that describes their wedding.

It seemed to me, it's written more like here she is...now fuck this.


But as if to knock me down, reality came around
And without so much as a mere touch, cut me into little pieces

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