Can't say how sex evolved, therefore Adam and Eve
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
28-05-2015, 08:42 AM
RE: Can't say how sex evolved, therefore Adam and Eve
(28-05-2015 08:40 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  
(28-05-2015 07:45 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Marriage ceremonies were different and were later codified, but since I define marriage as a covenant between three persons, a man, a woman and God, I'd say God telling Adam and Eve they were about to do something that others would later do "For this reason, a man WILL leave his father and mother and be joined to his WIFE, and the two shall become one flesh," I'd also say God was definitely involved.

Why 3 people? What about when a king is married to hundreds of people or What about when you have a concubine like Abraham? Is that still between 3 persons?

David had multiple wives and he was God's favorite.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
28-05-2015, 08:55 AM
RE: Can't say how sex evolved, therefore Adam and Eve
(28-05-2015 07:59 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Eve was made from Adam and for Adam and he was for her as well--"it's not good for man to be alone".

No. There is no Biblical support for that statement.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
[Image: flagstiny%206.gif]
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
28-05-2015, 09:27 AM (This post was last modified: 28-05-2015 09:43 AM by Reltzik.)
RE: Can't say how sex evolved, therefore Adam and Eve
(28-05-2015 07:48 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(27-05-2015 11:01 AM)Reltzik Wrote:  Actually, human gestation period is on the low side for mammals of our size. Humans need to be born earlier in the developmental process so that our relatively large craniums can fit through the birth canal, especially after the pelvic changes forced by upright walking, and it is partially because of this early birth that our first few months are periods of such extreme dependency relative to, say, a lamb who is a toddler within a few hours of birth. It's one of the huge evolutionary disadvantages forced upon us by our large brains (along with increased calorie requirements and a proclivity for inventing new ways to kill each other).

But more than that, lengthy periods of child rearing are typical for k-selected species such as ourselves. If you're not familiar with the term, k-selection refers to a reproductive "strategy" of quality over quantity. Some species, such as salmon, produce a very large number of offspring per mating pair, each with very low odds of surviving to a reproductive age themselves. These are known as r-selected species. When the parents can provide any nurturing or care for their offspring at all, it must of necessity be short-term and spread wide over the large brood, and so the offspring must quickly fend for themselves. At the other extreme, k-selected species have very few offspring, but those offspring have a much higher chance of surviving to reproduce. Because each individual offspring is much more important to the parent's genetic survival, it is necessary for the parents to lavish a large degree of care upon the offspring, and their instincts will reflect that. Both strategies have advantages and disadvantages, and both are perfectly viable for certain evolutionary niches but not others. Any species that evolved with the capacity to learn the way humans do would likely need considerable rearing to take advantage of that capacity, and so they would need to be k-selected. In short, humans are not a deviation from this pattern. They are part of it, and the k-selection traits you cited are perfectly well explained under evolutionary theory. There's no gap here for your god to explain, even if claiming a god could explain a gap in the first place.

Of course there's a gap. Human pain in childbirth. Anyone growing up on a farm or doing fieldwork as a veterinarian knows "the curse of Eve".

That's not a gap. For it to be a gap, it would have to be something that didn't make sense under science. If women magically levitated during childbirth, THAT would be a gap. Feeling pain when passing something the size of a watermelon is not. Childbirth being an especially painful process for human women, with the aforementioned overlarge natal cranium coupled with a pelvic region recently reshaped for upright walking, is hardly something that requires a god to explain.

Also, that curse of Eve business makes NO SENSE WHATSOEVER even in the Bible. Why do the children get cursed too? Is that somehow justice, cursing umpteen hundred generations for the actions of their ancestors? If that's somehow justice, why do the female descendents inherit the curses of both ancestors (because farming's no easier for them than for men), but are the only ones who get the curse of Eve? It's not like MEN aren't supposedly descended from her as well. If it's just to curse the descendents, why do women get both sets of curse but men only one set of curses? Men magically sharing the pain of childbirth would also be a gap that would need explaining, would correct some of the gender inequity of men being able to treat pregnancy more lightly than women, and would be useful in establishing paternity for those who care about such things.

But rather than play the god-of-the-gaps game, I'd like to take a step back and talk about what a STUPID GAME IT IS TO PLAY.

First of all, it's a complete logical fallacy. Suppose you actually were to find a gap in current scientific explanations. (This is doubtful. Not because current science has no gaps. But you are so quick to declare victory without actually checking whether you've found a real gap, and that makes you give up looking before you find one.)

All that would prove is that modern scientific understanding is incomplete, which even without that purely-hypothetical effort on your part any scientist will readily admit. (Cheerfully. It's why they have jobs, after all.) It would not prove the existence of your god, or of Thor, or of Horus, or of any god at all. It wouldn't rule them out, mind you, but neither would it rule them in. Therefore, pointing at such a gap and screaming "THERE'S THE THING THAT PROVES MY GOD!" is a falsehood. A lie. Even if your god were the cause of it, it would not be proof.

(I'll also note that this is especially stupid if one believes in the Christian god. Something that is presented as a wrathful god of truth isn't going to be very happy about being extolled with falsehoods.)

Furthermore, we can look at the history of knowledge and see how this REPEATEDLY gets screwed up. God has at various times cited by believers as the direct explanation for: celestial motion, sunrise, plants growing, rain falling, droughts, and AIDS, to name a VERY small number of things. The DIRECT explanation mind you -- not "god created the human immunodeficiency virus however-many years ago and now it's propagating by natural means through humanity", but "god is striking down each individual victim directly." Hunting around for a gap and saying GODDUNNIT! is a thought process that has a demonstrably lousy, lousy, lousy track record, to the point that if you ever get it RIGHT it will be less a matter of logically uncovering the truth and more a matter of a broken clock being right twice per day. (Though "right twice per day" would be an IMPROVEMENT.) But part of its track record is that it somehow manages to keep suckering people into believing it with its siren song of you-get-to-be-lazy-and-smugly-superior. Something that leads you to be often wrong but simultaneously secure that you are right is something that honest seekers of truth avoid like quicksand.

... not that you embracing it constitutes a gap, there. I'm just explaining why the rest of us want nothing to do with it.

But the god of the gaps thinking is worse than that.

Every time you get this wrong, it's a discredit to your faith. Every time you make a clown of yourself, you also make a clown of your position. This is half of why Christianity is hemorrhaging youth in modern America. When you put yourself to the task of being a representative of your beliefs in a public forum such as this, and when you set yourself to it in such an incompetent manner, you spoil not only your own reputation but the reputation of your beliefs. You harm your cause, rather than help it. Better to do nothing than to do that.

But the god of the gaps thinking is even worse than that.

Promiscuously sticking your god in every gap you can find gets in the way of real explanations. We don't learn why the sun rises when we are secure in the belief that it's some flaming dude on a flying chariot. We don't learn where babies come from when we're busy declaring them a miracle from above. If we bought into a god of the gaps, then we would never find the REAL explanations for those gaps. Sticking a god in there doesn't just deceive us into thinking we've found the truth, it prevents us from finding the REAL truth.

But the god of the gaps thinking even worse than that.

Because once we find the real explanation, we reap the benefits of it! Once we stop explaining celestial motion with "goddunnit" and discover astrophysics, we are able to put satellites into orbit and establish global telecommunications. (Okay, fine, we need to develop rocketry and radio as well, but it's a necessary step.) Once we stop explaining AIDS with "goddunnit" and identify HIV and how it works, we can develop retro viral treatments, promote safe procedures that prevents the spread of the disease, and start working for an outright cure... preferably BEFORE our indifference to truth and our god-hates-fags mindset gets little hemophiliac kids infected via blood transfusions. (THANKS REAGAN!) Once we stop explaining the growth of crops with "goddunnit", we can get down to the science of how crops grow, and have ourselves a little green revolution that could (if we could only work out the logistics of distribution) end famine entirely. And so on, and so on. None of this can happen until we get the god OUT of the gap and find the real explanation that fits there instead! Don't speak to me of sacrificing birds to cure a household of leprosy because goddunnit. Speak to me of leaving the birds be and using dapsone, rifampicin, and clofazimine instead.

But the god of the gaps thinking is even worse than that.

Because it's not enough for many god-of-the-gaps thinkers to just think this on their own. They have to go ruin life for EVERYONE ELSE AS WELL. There's a science program threatening to fill his favorite gap with something other than his god? CAN'T HAVE THAT! CUT ITS FUNDING! There's a high school teaching future doctors about some explanation for biological fact that isn't his god? PASS LAWS! FINE THE TEACHERS! DEFUND PUBLIC SCHOOLS AND ISSUE VOUCHERS FOR PRIVATE CHRISTIAN INDOCTRINATION INSTITUTES! SOMEBODY THINK OF THE CHILDREN! Some people are actually educating each other on an online forum about how evolution works? DERAIL IT! TALK ABOUT ADAM AND EVE AND THE FALL INSTEAD! Even if some people don't get into others' business like this, they can persuade and indoctrinate those who will.

Angry

So since we're making "don't speak to me about ____" statements to each other? Don't speak to me about gaps that your god "explains".

(Edit addendum: Please note that the above complaints about "god of the gaps" thinking work just as well when coming from a believing Christian. This isn't atheist-versus-theist. It's cares-about-truth-versus-doesn't.)
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 6 users Like Reltzik's post
28-05-2015, 09:49 AM
RE: Can't say how sex evolved, therefore Adam and Eve
(28-05-2015 07:47 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(27-05-2015 10:56 AM)jennybee Wrote:  If they didn't eat the magic fruit--there would be no reproduction either since they would not have been attracted to each other in a sexual way. After eating the fruit, they noticed each other in a sexual way, before that---no sexual interest.

Interesting assumption, but sexual arousal is not evil, rather the pursuit of it in fornication, masturbation, etc. and so there could have been sexual arousal without disobedience. The fall involves disobedience.

So you have no plans to think like a grown up anytime soon?

“Truth does not demand belief. Scientists do not join hands every Sunday, singing, yes, gravity is real! I will have faith! I will be strong! I believe in my heart that what goes up, up, up, must come down, down, down. Amen! If they did, we would think they were pretty insecure about it.”
— Dan Barker —
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Timber1025's post
28-05-2015, 11:48 AM
RE: Can't say how sex evolved, therefore Adam and Eve
(28-05-2015 07:51 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(27-05-2015 01:43 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  Was this after Adam fucked all the animals, birds, and fish in sea and found them inadequate?

Please site the exact verse that describes their wedding.

It seemed to me, it's written more like here she is...now fuck this.

"For this cause, a man shall leave his father and mother and cleave to his WIFE". Gen 2:24 - commonly shared at marriage benedictions.

Who was adam's father and mother???


But as if to knock me down, reality came around
And without so much as a mere touch, cut me into little pieces

Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Momsurroundedbyboys's post
28-05-2015, 11:57 AM
RE: Can't say how sex evolved, therefore Adam and Eve
(28-05-2015 11:48 AM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  
(28-05-2015 07:51 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  "For this cause, a man shall leave his father and mother and cleave to his WIFE". Gen 2:24 - commonly shared at marriage benedictions.

Who was adam's father and mother???

Maybe the other "gods' referenced in the OT were some loose godesses that god went and had a bastard child with and called Adam?

“Truth does not demand belief. Scientists do not join hands every Sunday, singing, yes, gravity is real! I will have faith! I will be strong! I believe in my heart that what goes up, up, up, must come down, down, down. Amen! If they did, we would think they were pretty insecure about it.”
— Dan Barker —
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
28-05-2015, 12:08 PM
RE: Can't say how sex evolved, therefore Adam and Eve
Got a little lonely last night so I removed a rib, betrothed myself to it, and then fucked the marrow out of it.

#GettingBiblical
#ThanksJebus
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Fodder_From_The_Truth's post
28-05-2015, 12:21 PM
RE: Can't say how sex evolved, therefore Adam and Eve
(28-05-2015 12:08 PM)Fodder_From_The_Truth Wrote:  Got a little lonely last night so I removed a rib, betrothed myself to it, and then fucked the marrow out of it.

#GettingBiblical
#ThanksJebus
Pics or it didn-- y'know, I'm going to take your word.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
28-05-2015, 12:27 PM
RE: Can't say how sex evolved, therefore Adam and Eve
(28-05-2015 12:08 PM)Fodder_From_The_Truth Wrote:  Got a little lonely last night so I removed a rib, betrothed myself to it, and then fucked the marrow out of it.

#GettingBiblical
#ThanksJebus

Would this be considered foreplay Tongue

[Image: ribs.jpg]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 4 users Like jennybee's post
28-05-2015, 12:29 PM
RE: Can't say how sex evolved, therefore Adam and Eve
(28-05-2015 12:27 PM)jennybee Wrote:  
(28-05-2015 12:08 PM)Fodder_From_The_Truth Wrote:  Got a little lonely last night so I removed a rib, betrothed myself to it, and then fucked the marrow out of it.

#GettingBiblical
#ThanksJebus

Would this be considered foreplay Tongue

[Image: ribs.jpg]

I'm down with the dry rub if ya know what I'm saying.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Fodder_From_The_Truth's post
Post Reply
Forum Jump: