Can the study of scripture be done in a scientific way?
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05-03-2017, 12:44 PM
RE: Can the study of scripture be done in a scientific way?
(05-03-2017 07:37 AM)hecrow55 Wrote:  Re: My post on what the Jewish belief about the End Times being the end of the Mosaic Law and the beginning of Messianic era.

This is from the Jewish site:

What Is the Jewish Belief About Moshiach?

What is the “End of Days”?

The term “End of Days” is taken from Numbers 24:14. This has always been taken as a reference to the messianic era. Here we shall explore—albeit briefly—the Jewish belief in the coming of Moshiach.

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cd...f-Days.htm

The complete answer is a very interesting read. Speaks of the prophets Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Amos, Joel and Hosea all refer to the messianic era.

You seem not to have read and understood your link.
Jesus DID NOT get the job of the Messiah done. All your nonsense dot-connections cannot refer to someone who did not fulfill what a messiah was supposed to do.

” The word moshiach in Hebrew actually means “anointed.” In Biblical Hebrew, the title moshiach was bestowed on somebody who had attained a position of nobility and greatness. For example, the high priest is referred to as the kohen ha-moshiach."

There were MANY, (not just one) of these "annointed" ones, (who were also called "sons of God"). Any of them could be the expected one. Most Jews did not expect a messiah. They didn't need one.

"In Talmudic literature (ie NOT THE BIBLE), the title Moshiach, or Melech HaMoshiach (the King Messiah), is reserved for the Jewish leader who will redeem Israel in the End of Days.

What is the belief in Moshiach?

One of the principles of Jewish faith enumerated by Maimonides is that one day there will arise a dynamic Jewish leader, a direct descendant of the Davidic dynasty, who will rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem, and gather Jews from all over the world and bring them back to the Land of Israel."

The temple is NOT rebuilt, and in fact (supposedly) after him the temple was DESTROYED. So much for your "scientific" messiah.

"All the nations of the world will recognize Moshiach to be a world leader, and will accept his dominion. In the messianic era there will be world peace, no more wars nor famine, and, in general, a high standard of living." ..... never happened.

"All mankind will worship one G‑d, and live a more spiritual and moral way of life. The Jewish nation will be preoccupied with learning Torah and fathoming its secrets." ..... never happened.

"The coming of Moshiach will complete G‑d’s purpose in creation: for man to make an abode for G‑d in the lower worlds—that is, to reveal the inherent spirituality in the material world." ..... never happened.

So much for your unscientific dot connections. You missed the forest for the trees.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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05-03-2017, 05:01 PM
RE: Can the study of scripture be done in a scientific way?
(05-03-2017 11:59 AM)unfogged Wrote:  
(05-03-2017 11:35 AM)Jay Vogelsong Wrote:  I keep telling religious people they should get their act together among themselves before they try to preach to atheists, but no one listens. Dodgy

The problem is that they think they do have their act together. They really think that if they show some way that the bible could be interpreted in a consistent manner then we'd have to accept that that makes it automatically true because... well, Jesus (or Mohammed or Vishnu or...). It's like the whole process of critical thinking is just turned off when they think about their religion; they understand how it works with other scriptures so it's not lack of intelligence or ability... it's just baffling to me when they can't apply it to their own. Compartmentalization is a hell of a thing.
I read an interesting essay today on the modular, non-unified structure of the mind. In particular, they spoke of a "module" called "the interpreter" which does basically whatever MUST be done to make "sense" of a given situation. It's just that it has no judgment at all about the qualify of the data it's working with.

An example was given of a study done with people who had been lobotomized such that the right and left hemispheres of their brains do not communicate. One side of the brain was shown a picture of chickens, the other a picture of a snow shovel in a snowdrift. The chicken picture was seen by the side of the brain that has the image interpretation circuitry but the shovel was seen by the other side. When asked what the shovel was for, the person said, oh, that's easy, it's for shoveling the chicken shit. The point being that they had this image of a shovel disconnected from any context and the "interpreter" provided context. That's how our brains work, folks, left to themselves with no effort to control for bias or bad data.

And that is how religion works, it riffs on these weaknesses. Life often is absurd and makes no sense, and religion helpfully provides explanations, and our brain happily accepts them.

I daresay that most of us here who do not buy the BS anymore just had enough experiences in life that violated the religious paradigms, that the cognitive dissonance of our religious beliefs became more painful than the cognitive dissonance of reality itself.

This is generally true, I suspect, of those of us who are deconverts.
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05-03-2017, 07:01 PM
RE: Can the study of scripture be done in a scientific way?
(05-03-2017 05:01 PM)mordant Wrote:  I daresay that most of us here who do not buy the BS anymore just had enough experiences in life that violated the religious paradigms, that the cognitive dissonance of our religious beliefs became more painful than the cognitive dissonance of reality itself.

An open-ended approach to reality helps, as well as a probability-based understanding of knowledge, both of which fit with atheistic attitudes and perspectives quite well.
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05-03-2017, 10:02 PM
RE: Can the study of scripture be done in a scientific way?
(05-03-2017 11:59 AM)unfogged Wrote:  
(05-03-2017 11:35 AM)Jay Vogelsong Wrote:  I keep telling religious people they should get their act together among themselves before they try to preach to atheists, but no one listens. Dodgy

The problem is that they think they do have their act together. They really think that if they show some way that the bible could be interpreted in a consistent manner then we'd have to accept that that makes it automatically true because... well, Jesus (or Mohammed or Vishnu or...). It's like the whole process of critical thinking is just turned off when they think about their religion; they understand how it works with other scriptures so it's not lack of intelligence or ability... it's just baffling to me when they can't apply it to their own. Compartmentalization is a hell of a thing.

They also seem unable to grasp the idea that I don't care. If the conclusion they're trying to prove is true, I don't care. It matters to them. They're trying to convince themselves. I tell people I don't care, and I ask why I should care, and I rarely get an answer. Under all the bullshit, it amounts to "Join my religion or you'll be sorry".

I have a website here which discusses the issues and terminology surrounding religion and atheism. It's hopefully user friendly to all.
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06-03-2017, 02:31 AM
RE: Can the study of scripture be done in a scientific way?
(05-03-2017 05:01 PM)mordant Wrote:  
(05-03-2017 11:59 AM)unfogged Wrote:  The problem is that they think they do have their act together. They really think that if they show some way that the bible could be interpreted in a consistent manner then we'd have to accept that that makes it automatically true because... well, Jesus (or Mohammed or Vishnu or...). It's like the whole process of critical thinking is just turned off when they think about their religion; they understand how it works with other scriptures so it's not lack of intelligence or ability... it's just baffling to me when they can't apply it to their own. Compartmentalization is a hell of a thing.
I read an interesting essay today on the modular, non-unified structure of the mind. In particular, they spoke of a "module" called "the interpreter" which does basically whatever MUST be done to make "sense" of a given situation. It's just that it has no judgment at all about the qualify of the data it's working with.

An example was given of a study done with people who had been lobotomized such that the right and left hemispheres of their brains do not communicate. One side of the brain was shown a picture of chickens, the other a picture of a snow shovel in a snowdrift. The chicken picture was seen by the side of the brain that has the image interpretation circuitry but the shovel was seen by the other side. When asked what the shovel was for, the person said, oh, that's easy, it's for shoveling the chicken shit. The point being that they had this image of a shovel disconnected from any context and the "interpreter" provided context. That's how our brains work, folks, left to themselves with no effort to control for bias or bad data.

And that is how religion works, it riffs on these weaknesses. Life often is absurd and makes no sense, and religion helpfully provides explanations, and our brain happily accepts them.

I daresay that most of us here who do not buy the BS anymore just had enough experiences in life that violated the religious paradigms, that the cognitive dissonance of our religious beliefs became more painful than the cognitive dissonance of reality itself.

This is generally true, I suspect, of those of us who are deconverts.

That's a very good way of describing it. I think these old "schools" of religious and myth writing were filled with people who understood how to make people think in a certain way and the skills were taught and handed down over generations. We have a hard time coming to terms that ancient societies could build stone structures like the pyramids and we also have difficulty seeing that people who wrote these kinds of works did it in a certain way which they understood would hook people psychologically. That's why I feel the success of Christianity is not a result of some hippy peace preacher just "happening" to catch the mood of the day. There are many like this but how many have a series of gospels written which are so fervently followed and meticulously exmained over thousands of years?

One can, I think, study the NT scientifically in terms of how it is written, why it is written in the way it is and how it works to bring people into the religion. Just as one could look "scientifically" at how a Batman or Superman concept is successful in getting kids interested in them.

You can also look at the moral philosophy from a rational perspective, like people are now doing more and more with Islam, to see if it makes sense, logically and rationally.

As for Adam and Eve, isn't this just ancient "science" or mathematics? It's a scientific theory. The more you go back in time the smaller the population of humans was so, mathematically, it had to go back to two original people. Makes sense... and then they explain how these two people were created. You've got to give them credit for at least thinking about these things.
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06-03-2017, 03:26 AM
RE: Can the study of scripture be done in a scientific way?
I've heard that the success of Christianty was ultimately the result of a certain important historical person adopting it as their religion. I can't remember who this is off hand, maybe someone can help me out? A roman leader, or something like that.

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06-03-2017, 03:41 AM
RE: Can the study of scripture be done in a scientific way?
(06-03-2017 03:26 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  I've heard that the success of Christianty was ultimately the result of a certain important historical person adopting it as their religion. I can't remember who this is off hand, maybe someone can help me out? A roman leader, or something like that.

Constantine. Yeah. He gave it a big boost.

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If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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06-03-2017, 06:11 AM
RE: Can the study of scripture be done in a scientific way?
That's it, thanks Big Grin

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06-03-2017, 06:44 AM
RE: Can the study of scripture be done in a scientific way?
(04-03-2017 04:42 PM)hecrow55 Wrote:  These kinds of groups tend to treat in-group heretics even more punitively than members of an enemy out-group because they're not only in opposition to the doctrine of the group, they threaten the group's internal cohesion.

I've made quite a few friends with agnostics, atheists, and people who beleive something else over these years.

Your friend is simply wrong. To use a colloquialism, she is talking out of her ass.

There are theists, deists and atheists on this board. People are judged on what they post and how they conduct themselves. People are not judged on what they believe. People can and will be asked about their beliefs, to explain them and possibly defend them.

You are offering a generalization about atheists and you seem to expect that attributing it to another atheist gives it validation.

Help for the living. Hope for the dead. ~ R.G. Ingersoll

Freedom offers opportunity. Opportunity confers responsibility. Responsibility to use the freedom we enjoy wisely, honestly and humanely. ~ Noam Chomsky
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06-03-2017, 06:48 AM
RE: Can the study of scripture be done in a scientific way?
(04-03-2017 04:08 PM)hecrow55 Wrote:  If you read the post, then you have seen a very small portion of what Jesus has taught me.

By the end of that day, all that I had posted before concerning the similarities between the written accounts of Moses and Jesus was revealed to me without even opening the Bible.

The creator of the entire universe, 400+ BILLION stars, the omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent god, the lord on high...

Speaks to you.

I want you to consider, carefully, two points.

1) Consider how staggeringly arrogant that idea is. That "god" speaks to you.

2) Consider that your omnipotent, omniscient deity hasn't given you the arguments, proof or evidence that would convince us.

Because, personally, I'm unimpressed.

Help for the living. Hope for the dead. ~ R.G. Ingersoll

Freedom offers opportunity. Opportunity confers responsibility. Responsibility to use the freedom we enjoy wisely, honestly and humanely. ~ Noam Chomsky
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