Can the study of scripture be done in a scientific way?
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01-03-2017, 08:54 PM
RE: Can the study of scripture be done in a scientific way?
One does not "believe" in scientific theories.
If there is evidence for one, it will eventually be supported.
There is no analogy between M Theory and Christianity.
Christianity started out as an apocalyptic sub sect in Judaism, and when the end didn't happen they cooked up reasons to keep it going, (ie salvation, payment for sins etc) and things which were never thought to be the role of a messiah. Jesus, (if he existed), didn't get the job done, and even his followers thought so.

Acts1:6 "Then they gathered around him and asked him, "Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?"

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01-03-2017, 08:58 PM
RE: Can the study of scripture be done in a scientific way?
(01-03-2017 08:50 PM)Aliza Wrote:  Harold,

I believe I can make a very strong case to show that the new treatment and Christianity conflicts with the Hebrew Bible. Why should I care what the NT says, given that it's very descriptions paint Jesus as a false, idolatrous god and is little more than a book of forgeries pretending to be a continuation of Judaism?

You believe because it makes you happy to do so. Maybe it gives you some peace, but I know your religion to be diametrically opposed to everything that I've been taught and understand to be true. For that reason, you can keep it.

There are mountains of scholarship that support this comment. ^^^
I don't buy into the transcendence of any religion, but the claim that Christianity flows organically from and "fulfills" Judaism, is simply false.
http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...ic-Origins

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01-03-2017, 09:06 PM
RE: Can the study of scripture be done in a scientific way?
(01-03-2017 08:50 PM)Aliza Wrote:  Harold,

I believe I can make a very strong case to show that the new treatment and Christianity conflicts with the Hebrew Bible. Why should I care what the NT says, given that it's very descriptions paint Jesus as a false, idolatrous god and is little more than a book of forgeries pretending to be a continuation of Judaism?
the
You believe because it makes you happy to do so. Maybe it gives you some peace, but I know your religion to be diametrically opposed to everything that I've been taught and understand to be true. For that reason, you can keep it.
I will be making a strong case the Jesus' doctrine conflicts with both the OT and NT scriptures as they are written. The mystery of God is what lies beneath the words of man.

I believe that the Bible as is written is fully the imagination of man's heart. This imagery of the heart is said to be evil (opposite) from our youth up. The mystery of God is concealed within these imaginations. And it's not limited to just those writers, but all people as one can ponder their hearts through their words.

Did you know that Jesus says that all that came before Him are robbers and thieves? Moses and all the prophets came before Jesus.

Are you familiar with logic? A premise is set that only one conclusion can be derived. Here is the premise set by Jesus:

Joh 10:8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.
Joh 10:10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

5 things are contained within this premise. Let's just take Moses as an example.

Did Moses come before Jesus? Yes
Is there killing in the scriptures of Moses? Yes
Is there stealing involved in the story? Yes
Is there destruction also written about? Yes
Is it true that the people did not listen too good to Moses? Yes

All 5 conditions in the premise are met with Moses, thus the conclusion is that Moses is one of the people Jesus is talking about.

All the other prophets in the OT meet all 5 conditions also.

I don't write this with any anti-semitism. It is just what the testimonial evidence produces.

Offered in the Love of Christ,
Harold
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01-03-2017, 09:08 PM
RE: Can the study of scripture be done in a scientific way?
We’ve been down this road before, GWG’s resource is a good place to start.

http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...ead?page=3

(29-10-2014 08:06 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  Some people actually believe that just because so much voice and ink has spread the word of a character named Jesus throughout history, that this must mean that he actually lived. This argument simply does not hold. The number of people who believe or write about something or the professional degrees they hold say nothing at all about fact. Facts derive out of evidence, not from hearsay, not from hubris scholars, and certainly not from faithful believers. Regardless of the position or admiration held by a scholar, believer, or priest, if he or she cannot support a hypothesis with good evidence, then it can only remain a hypothesis.

While a likely possibility exists that an actual Jesus lived, another likely possibility reveals that a mythology could have derived out of earlier mythologies or possibly independent archetypal hero worship. Although we have no evidence for a historical Jesus, we certainly have many accounts of mythologies from the Middle East during the first century and before. Many of these stories appear similar to the Christ saviour story.

Just before and during the first century, the Jews had prophesied about an upcoming Messiah based on Jewish scripture. Their beliefs influenced many of their followers. We know that powerful beliefs can create self-fulfilling prophesies, and surely this proved just as true in ancient times. It served as a popular dream expressed in Hebrew Scripture for the promise of an "end-time" with a savior to lead them to the promised land. Indeed, Roman records show executions of several would-be Messiahs, (but not a single record mentions a Jesus). Many ancients believed that there could come a final war against the "Sons of Darkness"-- the Romans.

This then could very well have served as the ignition and flame for the future growth of Christianity. Biblical scholars tell us that the early Christians lived within pagan communities. Jewish scriptural beliefs coupled with the pagan myths of the time give sufficient information about how such a religion could have formed. Many of the Hellenistic and pagan myths parallel so closely to the alleged Jesus that to ignore its similarities means to ignore the mythological beliefs of history. Dozens of similar savior stories propagated the minds of humans long before the alleged life of Jesus. Virtually nothing about Jesus "the Christ" came to the Christians as original or new.

For example, the religion of Zoroaster, founded circa 628-551 B.C.E. in ancient Persia, roused mankind in the need for hating a devil, the belief of a paradise, last judgment and resurrection of the dead. Mithraism, an offshoot of Zoroastrianism probably influenced early Christianity. The Magi described in the New Testament appears as Zoroastrian priests. Note the word "paradise" came from the Persian pairidaeza.

Osiris, Hercules, Hermes, Prometheus, Perseus, Romulus, and others compare to the Christian myth. According to Patrick Campbell of The Mythical Jesus, all served as pre-Christian sun gods, yet all allegedly had gods for fathers, virgins for mothers; had their births announced by stars; got born on the solstice around December 25th; had tyrants who tried to kill them in their infancy; met violent deaths; rose from the dead; and nearly all got worshiped by "wise men" and had allegedly fasted for forty days.

Even Justin Martyr recognized the analogies between Christianity and Paganism. To the Pagans, he wrote: "When we say that the Word, who is first born of God, was produced without sexual union, and that he, Jesus Christ, our teacher, was crucified and died, and rose again, and ascended into heaven; we propound nothing different from what you believe regarding those whom you esteem sons of Jupiter (Zeus)."

Virtually all of the mythical accounts of a savior Jesus have parallels to past pagan mythologies which existed long before Christianity and from the Jewish scriptures that we now call the Old Testament. The accounts of these myths say nothing about historical reality, but they do say a lot about believers, how they believed, and how their beliefs spread.

In the book The Jesus Puzzle, the biblical scholar, Earl Doherty, presents not only a challenge to the existence of an historical Jesus but reveals that early pre-Gospel Christian documents show that the concept of Jesus sprang from non-historical spiritual beliefs of a Christ derived from Jewish scripture and Hellenized myths of savior gods. Nowhere do any of the New Testament epistle writers describe a human Jesus, including Paul. None of the epistles mention a Jesus from Nazareth, an earthly teacher, or as a human miracle worker. Nowhere do we find these writers quoting Jesus. Nowhere do we find them describing any details of Jesus' life on earth or his followers. Nowhere do we find the epistle writers even using the word "disciple" (they of course use the term "apostle" but the word simply means messenger, as Paul saw himself). Except for a few well known interpolations, Jesus always gets presented as a spiritual being that existed before all time with God, and that knowledge of Christ came directly from God or as a revelation from the word of scripture. Doherty writes, "Christian documents outside the Gospels, even at the end of the first century and beyond, show no evidence that any tradition about an earthly life and ministry of Jesus were in circulation."

Furthermore, the epistle to the Hebrews (8:4), makes it explicitly clear that the epistle writer did not believe in a historical Jesus: "If He [Jesus] had been on earth, He would not be a priest."

Did the Christians copy (or steal) the pagan ideas directly into their own faith? Not necessarily. They may have gotten many of their beliefs through syncretism or through independent hero archetype worship, innate to human story telling. If gotten through syncretism, Jews and pagans could very well have influenced the first Christians, especially the ideas of salvation and beliefs about good and evil. Later, at the time of the gospels, other myths may entered Christian beliefs such a the virgin birth and miracles. In the 4th century, we know that Christians derived the birthday of Jesus from the pagans. If gotten through independent means, it still says nothing about Christian originality because we know that pagans had beliefs about incarnated gods, long before Christianity existed. The hero archetypes still exist in our story telling today. As one personal example, as a boy I used to read and collect Superman comics. It never occurred to me at the time to see Superman as a Christ-figure. Yet, if you analyze Superman and Jesus stories, they have uncanny similarities. In fact the movie Superman Returns explicitly tells the Superman story through a savior's point of view without once mentioning Jesus, yet Christians would innately know the connection. Other movies like Star Wars, Phenomenon, K-PAX, The Matrix, etc. also covertly tell savior stories. So whether the first Christians borrowed or independently came up with a savior story makes no difference whatsoever. The point here only aims to illustrate that Christians did not originate the savior story.

The early historical documents can prove nothing about an actual Jesus but they do show an evolution of belief derived from varied and diverse concepts of Christianity, starting from a purely spiritual form of Christ to a human figure who embodied that spirit, as portrayed in the Gospels. The New Testament stories appears as an eclectic hodgepodge of Jewish, Hellenized and pagan stories compiled by pietistic believers to appeal to an audience for their particular religious times.

Thanks GWG

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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01-03-2017, 09:11 PM (This post was last modified: 01-03-2017 09:16 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Can the study of scripture be done in a scientific way?
(01-03-2017 09:06 PM)hecrow55 Wrote:  
(01-03-2017 08:50 PM)Aliza Wrote:  Harold,

I believe I can make a very strong case to show that the new treatment and Christianity conflicts with the Hebrew Bible. Why should I care what the NT says, given that it's very descriptions paint Jesus as a false, idolatrous god and is little more than a book of forgeries pretending to be a continuation of Judaism?
the
You believe because it makes you happy to do so. Maybe it gives you some peace, but I know your religion to be diametrically opposed to everything that I've been taught and understand to be true. For that reason, you can keep it.
I will be making a strong case the Jesus' doctrine conflicts with both the OT and NT scriptures as they are written. The mystery of God is what lies beneath the words of man.

I believe that the Bible as is written is fully the imagination of man's heart. This imagery of the heart is said to be evil (opposite) from our youth up. The mystery of God is concealed within these imaginations. And it's not limited to just those writers, but all people as one can ponder their hearts through their words.

Did you know that Jesus says that all that came before Him are robbers and thieves? Moses and all the prophets came before Jesus.

Are you familiar with logic? A premise is set that only one conclusion can be derived. Here is the premise set by Jesus:

Joh 10:8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.
Joh 10:10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

5 things are contained within this premise. Let's just take Moses as an example.

Did Moses come before Jesus? Yes
Is there killing in the scriptures of Moses? Yes
Is there stealing involved in the story? Yes
Is there destruction also written about? Yes
Is it true that the people did not listen too good to Moses? Yes

All 5 conditions in the premise are met with Moses, thus the conclusion is that Moses is one of the people Jesus is talking about.

All the other prophets in the OT meet all 5 conditions also.

I don't write this with any anti-semitism. It is just what the testimonial evidence produces.

Offered in the Love of Christ,
Harold

Too bad Moses has been debunked.
He was a mythical figure in the traditions of the Northern Kingdom. He never did anything. There is absolutely no evidence for any of the Patriarchs in archaeology.
We know there were Semitic settlements in Canaan by the time any "Exodus" could have happened, and Egypt ALREADY controlled ALL of the Near East, so going from one place they controlled to another, make s no sense AT ALL.

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01-03-2017, 09:12 PM
RE: Can the study of scripture be done in a scientific way?
(01-03-2017 09:06 PM)hecrow55 Wrote:  Did you know that Jesus says that all that came before Him are robbers and thieves? Moses and all the prophets came before Jesus.

With the greatest respect to you and your beliefs, Jesus was a colossal douch bag. I don't care what the NT says he said.

In my heritage, he's one of the bad guys.
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01-03-2017, 09:14 PM
RE: Can the study of scripture be done in a scientific way?
(01-03-2017 09:06 PM)hecrow55 Wrote:  
(01-03-2017 08:50 PM)Aliza Wrote:  Harold,

I believe I can make a very strong case to show that the new treatment and Christianity conflicts with the Hebrew Bible. Why should I care what the NT says, given that it's very descriptions paint Jesus as a false, idolatrous god and is little more than a book of forgeries pretending to be a continuation of Judaism?
the
You believe because it makes you happy to do so. Maybe it gives you some peace, but I know your religion to be diametrically opposed to everything that I've been taught and understand to be true. For that reason, you can keep it.
I will be making a strong case the Jesus' doctrine conflicts with both the OT and NT scriptures as they are written. The mystery of God is what lies beneath the words of man.

I believe that the Bible as is written is fully the imagination of man's heart. This imagery of the heart is said to be evil (opposite) from our youth up. The mystery of God is concealed within these imaginations. And it's not limited to just those writers, but all people as one can ponder their hearts through their words.

Did you know that Jesus says that all that came before Him are robbers and thieves? Moses and all the prophets came before Jesus.

Are you familiar with logic? A premise is set that only one conclusion can be derived. Here is the premise set by Jesus:

Joh 10:8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.
Joh 10:10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

5 things are contained within this premise. Let's just take Moses as an example.

Did Moses come before Jesus? Yes
Is there killing in the scriptures of Moses? Yes
Is there stealing involved in the story? Yes
Is there destruction also written about? Yes
Is it true that the people did not listen too good to Moses? Yes

All 5 conditions in the premise are met with Moses, thus the conclusion is that Moses is one of the people Jesus is talking about.

All the other prophets in the OT meet all 5 conditions also.

I don't write this with any anti-semitism. It is just what the testimonial evidence produces.

Offered in the Love of Christ,
Harold

Now all you have to do is prove that what is written in John (and nowhere else) was actually said by a "Jesus". Good luck with that.

But thanks awfully.
We here at TTA are on the nut-a-week plan. We get one of you crazies about once a week. You ALL think you have figured out some unique angle on everything.
You people really should unionize ... so you can get paid.
Facepalm

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01-03-2017, 09:14 PM
RE: Can the study of scripture be done in a scientific way?
(01-03-2017 07:45 PM)hecrow55 Wrote:  ---
Can science aid in the study and edification of the sayings of Jesus?

Well, science does aid in study, if one reads such sayings from a computer. "Edification" often gets jacked up by intent but I like to think knowledge is a positive thing - a contribution to the self.

I am often wary of Intent ...

(01-03-2017 07:45 PM)hecrow55 Wrote:  ---
{massive wall of text}
----
It is only through Christ that this can be accomplished and that all things become possible for Jesus alone is the Way to obtain the Truth that brings forth the instructions of Life to the disciple and the world.
--

It appears you have decided on an answer to your question.

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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01-03-2017, 09:26 PM
RE: Can the study of scripture be done in a scientific way?
Let's start with Genesis.
Is there any evidence that the things written in Genesis are true ?

As far as I know, the answer is no.

Harry, do you believe that Genesis is factually true ?
If so, why do you believe that ?

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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01-03-2017, 09:27 PM
RE: Can the study of scripture be done in a scientific way?
(01-03-2017 09:08 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  We’ve been down this road before, GWG’s resource is a good place to start.

http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...ead?page=3

(29-10-2014 08:06 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  Some people actually believe that just because so much voice and ink has spread the word of a character named Jesus throughout history, that this must mean that he actually lived. This argument simply does not hold. The number of people who believe or write about something or the professional degrees they hold say nothing at all about fact. Facts derive out of evidence, not from hearsay, not from hubris scholars, and certainly not from faithful believers. Regardless of the position or admiration held by a scholar, believer, or priest, if he or she cannot support a hypothesis with good evidence, then it can only remain a hypothesis.

While a likely possibility exists that an actual Jesus lived, another likely possibility reveals that a mythology could have derived out of earlier mythologies or possibly independent archetypal hero worship. Although we have no evidence for a historical Jesus, we certainly have many accounts of mythologies from the Middle East during the first century and before. Many of these stories appear similar to the Christ saviour story.

Just before and during the first century, the Jews had prophesied about an upcoming Messiah based on Jewish scripture. Their beliefs influenced many of their followers. We know that powerful beliefs can create self-fulfilling prophesies, and surely this proved just as true in ancient times. It served as a popular dream expressed in Hebrew Scripture for the promise of an "end-time" with a savior to lead them to the promised land. Indeed, Roman records show executions of several would-be Messiahs, (but not a single record mentions a Jesus). Many ancients believed that there could come a final war against the "Sons of Darkness"-- the Romans.

This then could very well have served as the ignition and flame for the future growth of Christianity. Biblical scholars tell us that the early Christians lived within pagan communities. Jewish scriptural beliefs coupled with the pagan myths of the time give sufficient information about how such a religion could have formed. Many of the Hellenistic and pagan myths parallel so closely to the alleged Jesus that to ignore its similarities means to ignore the mythological beliefs of history. Dozens of similar savior stories propagated the minds of humans long before the alleged life of Jesus. Virtually nothing about Jesus "the Christ" came to the Christians as original or new.

For example, the religion of Zoroaster, founded circa 628-551 B.C.E. in ancient Persia, roused mankind in the need for hating a devil, the belief of a paradise, last judgment and resurrection of the dead. Mithraism, an offshoot of Zoroastrianism probably influenced early Christianity. The Magi described in the New Testament appears as Zoroastrian priests. Note the word "paradise" came from the Persian pairidaeza.

Osiris, Hercules, Hermes, Prometheus, Perseus, Romulus, and others compare to the Christian myth. According to Patrick Campbell of The Mythical Jesus, all served as pre-Christian sun gods, yet all allegedly had gods for fathers, virgins for mothers; had their births announced by stars; got born on the solstice around December 25th; had tyrants who tried to kill them in their infancy; met violent deaths; rose from the dead; and nearly all got worshiped by "wise men" and had allegedly fasted for forty days.

Even Justin Martyr recognized the analogies between Christianity and Paganism. To the Pagans, he wrote: "When we say that the Word, who is first born of God, was produced without sexual union, and that he, Jesus Christ, our teacher, was crucified and died, and rose again, and ascended into heaven; we propound nothing different from what you believe regarding those whom you esteem sons of Jupiter (Zeus)."

Virtually all of the mythical accounts of a savior Jesus have parallels to past pagan mythologies which existed long before Christianity and from the Jewish scriptures that we now call the Old Testament. The accounts of these myths say nothing about historical reality, but they do say a lot about believers, how they believed, and how their beliefs spread.

In the book The Jesus Puzzle, the biblical scholar, Earl Doherty, presents not only a challenge to the existence of an historical Jesus but reveals that early pre-Gospel Christian documents show that the concept of Jesus sprang from non-historical spiritual beliefs of a Christ derived from Jewish scripture and Hellenized myths of savior gods. Nowhere do any of the New Testament epistle writers describe a human Jesus, including Paul. None of the epistles mention a Jesus from Nazareth, an earthly teacher, or as a human miracle worker. Nowhere do we find these writers quoting Jesus. Nowhere do we find them describing any details of Jesus' life on earth or his followers. Nowhere do we find the epistle writers even using the word "disciple" (they of course use the term "apostle" but the word simply means messenger, as Paul saw himself). Except for a few well known interpolations, Jesus always gets presented as a spiritual being that existed before all time with God, and that knowledge of Christ came directly from God or as a revelation from the word of scripture. Doherty writes, "Christian documents outside the Gospels, even at the end of the first century and beyond, show no evidence that any tradition about an earthly life and ministry of Jesus were in circulation."

Furthermore, the epistle to the Hebrews (8:4), makes it explicitly clear that the epistle writer did not believe in a historical Jesus: "If He [Jesus] had been on earth, He would not be a priest."

Did the Christians copy (or steal) the pagan ideas directly into their own faith? Not necessarily. They may have gotten many of their beliefs through syncretism or through independent hero archetype worship, innate to human story telling. If gotten through syncretism, Jews and pagans could very well have influenced the first Christians, especially the ideas of salvation and beliefs about good and evil. Later, at the time of the gospels, other myths may entered Christian beliefs such a the virgin birth and miracles. In the 4th century, we know that Christians derived the birthday of Jesus from the pagans. If gotten through independent means, it still says nothing about Christian originality because we know that pagans had beliefs about incarnated gods, long before Christianity existed. The hero archetypes still exist in our story telling today. As one personal example, as a boy I used to read and collect Superman comics. It never occurred to me at the time to see Superman as a Christ-figure. Yet, if you analyze Superman and Jesus stories, they have uncanny similarities. In fact the movie Superman Returns explicitly tells the Superman story through a savior's point of view without once mentioning Jesus, yet Christians would innately know the connection. Other movies like Star Wars, Phenomenon, K-PAX, The Matrix, etc. also covertly tell savior stories. So whether the first Christians borrowed or independently came up with a savior story makes no difference whatsoever. The point here only aims to illustrate that Christians did not originate the savior story.

The early historical documents can prove nothing about an actual Jesus but they do show an evolution of belief derived from varied and diverse concepts of Christianity, starting from a purely spiritual form of Christ to a human figure who embodied that spirit, as portrayed in the Gospels. The New Testament stories appears as an eclectic hodgepodge of Jewish, Hellenized and pagan stories compiled by pietistic believers to appeal to an audience for their particular religious times.

Thanks GWG

Have you ever heard of Simon Greenleaf?

He is one of the men who set up and established the Harvard School of Law. His published work on the rules of evidence is still considered one of the greatest treatise ever written on the subject.

Greenleaf's principal work of legal scholarship is a Treatise on the Law of Evidence (3 vols., 1842–1853), and which remained a standard textbook in American law throughout the Nineteenth century. - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon_Greenleaf

Greenleaf was an agnostic whom some say leaned to atheism. He was challenged by one of his students one day to consider the Gospel account of the resurrection of Jesus according to his own rules of evidence. He accepted the challenge expecting to prove is was a myth and/or hoax. After he had considered the evidence, he converted to Christianity and wrote another paper on how he had scrutinized the evidence.

You can read it here:
The testimony of the evangelists examined by the rules of evidence administered in courts of justice
https://archive.org/details/testimonyevange00tiscgoog

The Bible would be acceptable evidence in any court of law under the ancient documents rule.

Offered in the Love of Christ,
Harold SmileSmileSmile
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