Can the study of scripture be done in a scientific way?
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02-03-2017, 07:06 AM
RE: Can the study of scripture be done in a scientific way?
(02-03-2017 04:54 AM)hecrow55 Wrote:  I see many have been going to the same old argument that much of the OT has been proven false. I agree.

So you agree that all of the passages in the OT that prophesize the messiah are false?

You agree that the story of adam and eve, the "original sin" is false?

Interesting.

Your god is not real.
FBH

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02-03-2017, 07:23 AM
RE: Can the study of scripture be done in a scientific way?
(02-03-2017 06:52 AM)abaris Wrote:  
(02-03-2017 06:46 AM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  Yes. Read Bart Ehrman.

Who still reads it as a theologian adding some textual criticism.

Last I heard, Ehrman is an atheist.

(02-03-2017 06:52 AM)abaris Wrote:  For example he's one of the select few maintaining there's some evidence for a historical Jesus. He's not a historian, who would and do read the bible in an entirely different fashion.

It is my understanding that he is considered a biblical historian.

As far as his stance on an historical jesus? eh. I don't know that I agree with him, but I consider his views worthy of consideration.

(02-03-2017 06:52 AM)abaris Wrote:  Ehrman also maintains that people at that time followed the same standards for writing a report we do today. Which couldn't be further from the truth. The main goal was to paint an ideal or to issue a warning. Not factual truth.

No, he specifically talks about the oral-history societies and the meaning of the word gospel. He uses the analogy of the children's' game of "telephone" to illustrate. He talks about the definition of gospel ("good news") and the ramifications of that.

I would also note that there are numerous scholars and historians that study the bible scientifically/critically. Richard Carrier is one who disagrees with Ehrman on the historical jesus. Ehrman is simply the one I've read the most.

Carry on. Thumbsup

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02-03-2017, 07:30 AM (This post was last modified: 02-03-2017 07:35 AM by EvolutionKills.)
RE: Can the study of scripture be done in a scientific way?
(02-03-2017 05:10 AM)hecrow55 Wrote:  I've taken nothing at face value.

Unless it's been attributed to Jesus, then it's true until proven otherwise, right? Dodgy

I mean, come the fuck on. You're using a blatant double standard, and only you don't notice it; or you're hoping we're all too stupid to not call you out on it. You are doing literally the exact opposite of the scientific method Mr. Study-The-Scripture-Scientifically.


(02-03-2017 04:54 AM)hecrow55 Wrote:  But the original OP states that it is only the words attributed to Jesus (His doctrine) that is to be tested to see if any word of it can be proven false (falsified).

As of yet, for the most part you all have only expressed your own personal opinions.

An example would be to prove this false:

Mat 23:12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.

There are many biblical examples of this being true. One of them is Joseph (Genesis) and his two dreams of becoming the one to whom all his brothers and his father would bow down to. If you are familiar with the story, then you know that once he declared this openly he suffered two acts a abasement. First, sold into slavery by his brothers. Later, thrown into prison. It wasn't until he humbled himself before Pharaoh that he was exalted to a higher state.

I have personally suffered abasement after I have said something that would be consider an exaltation of self. Of course, I am fully aware that personal experiences are not to be considered as evidence. That is, unless it can be shown to be a common occurrence in life.

Take time to think about when you may have suffered a form of abasement and consider whether or not you had previously exalted yourself. But it does take an honest assessment of your life which few people are willing to do.

You started with your assumption, and you sought out confirmatory evidence. In science you start with a falsifiable hypothesis, then set about trying to prove it false; only if your hypothesis survives the rigors of you and others without failing does it warrant further merit. Lets just for a second ignore you taking the Bible at face value, and notice how you have shifted the burden of proof. The scientific method is so effective because it forces you to confront your biases, in this case, it would be doing your absolute best to disprove your hypothesis. What is your hypothesis? Hard to tell, as you're trumpeting about with 'you haven't proven this false yet' clap-trap. Congrats, you're only the 9th person this year so far to think that was a novel idea. But it is incumbent upon you to try to disprove your hypothesis, and only after trying really hard and failing to do so, do you perhaps have something worth going on. It is not incumbent of skeptics to disprove your mere assertions.

That being said, what do you mean by exalted? If you mean 'happy', then the passage at best is trivially true. If you mean something super-natural, then good luck getting evidence in support of that.

Plus, validating Jesus' claims with other tales in the Bible is like making claims about the Force based on the Star Wars movies. If I claimed that anger lead one to to the Dark Side, and quoted Master Yoda, it would not be incumbent upon the skeptic to prove me wrong. Rather it would be upon me to support my assertion. If I cannot, then the claim might still be true within the fiction of the Star Wars universe, but that relegates it to a fictional trivial truth. Unless you have something better than quoting the Bible at us, your Jesus is no more real than Yoda.



(02-03-2017 05:10 AM)hecrow55 Wrote:  And I am fully aware of how Judaism adopted things from other cultures they have encountered. The law given by Moses actually predates Genesis. Though stated slightly differently, it almost entirely is contained in the Egyptian Book of the Dead. Moses had been trained up in all the ways of the Egyptians and did not depart from them when he was old. This includes the animal sacrifices for sin and other things which was a common practice throughout the area.

ProTip: Moses, and the rest of the Patriarchs, didn't actually exist. They are myth. Drinking Beverage



(02-03-2017 05:10 AM)hecrow55 Wrote:  It is also true that many pagan and other rituals have been adapted into the Christianity religion. The celebrations of Easter and Christmas in particular. But then that is evidence of the answer to Jesus' question:

Luk 23:31 For if they do these things in a green tree, what shall be done in the dry?

Ecc 1:9 The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.

In other words, all the mistakes made before the cross would be made again after the cross. Thus, the ritual sacrifices done before are also being done in Christianity as the preaching of Christ crucified is prevalent throughout the religion.

It is written that God gave us the choice of life or death to choose between. Christ crucified is His death. The words He speaks are His life. That His death has been chosen over His life is in fulfillment of what was written.

Jer 8:3 And death shall be chosen rather than life by all the residue of them that remain of this evil family, which remain in all the places whither I have driven them, saith the LORD of hosts.

Offered in the Love of Christ,
Harold Smile Smile Smile


Oh fuck off. Save your sermonizing for people who actually give a shit.

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02-03-2017, 07:48 AM
RE: Can the study of scripture be done in a scientific way?
hecrow55 Wrote:But the original OP states that it is only the words attributed to Jesus (His doctrine) that is to be tested to see if any word of it can be proven false (falsified).

"Ask and it shall be given to you".
I asked many, many times something that I really needed and it was very important. I have never got it.

P.S.
1)What is exactly Jesus doctrine?
2)Why do I need to know if words of Jesus are true? Is there any particular reason?

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02-03-2017, 07:56 AM (This post was last modified: 02-03-2017 09:32 AM by TheBeardedDude.)
RE: Can the study of scripture be done in a scientific way?
(01-03-2017 07:21 PM)hecrow55 Wrote:  Can the study of scripture be done in a scientific way?

Science and Christianity have one thing in common, they both are a search for the truth. Or maybe I should say that Christianity should be the search for truth? That is what it is for me.

Where science has constantly corrected it’s theories through testing and research which may falsify a portion of a theory when error is found resulting a better and stronger theory, Christianity has been stagnant in moving beyond the cross and Jesus dying for the world’s sins. By sticking to the traditional doctrine based not on the teachings of Jesus, but on commandments of the other people in the Bible (mainly the writings of Paul), the Christian religion has been a thorn in the crown of Jesus rather than a harvester of His wheat. (But, as will be revealed sometime in this thread, this is done in fulfillment of what had been written in the OT scriptures.)

The scientific method begins with a question being asked. Initial data is collected and an hypothesis is formed. This hypothesis is then subject to testing and/or further observation which will either falsify or verify the hypothesis. Verification results in a theory being established. The findings of a theory is continually tested and must be repeatable by peers.

Question: Is the doctrine of Jesus the truth as He declares it to be?

Test: Can any of the sayings of Jesus be proved to be a lie?

I will produce the initial evidence that supports His bold statement in another post.

Offered in the Love of Christ,
Harold

(I always close with that. I do not mean it to be an offense to anyone. I just consider what I write to be offerings, not the final word on any matter.)

You can study anything in a scientific way. Whether or not the scientific study will yield results that substantiate your preconceived beliefs is another issue altogether. So, if you are looking for a better understanding of Christianity and the Judeo-Chrisitan god via science, you are probably going to be sorely disappointed as you continue to come across impossible, implausible, and improbable beliefs within the religion that the scientific analysis won't corroborate. Meaning that if you seek to objectively evaluate the merits of any religion in a scientific manner, you will find them all equally as unlikely.

Now, what you seem to mean is that you are going to try and butcher science to make it conform to your religious dogma. I suspect this will go about as well as small talk between Trump and Clinton.

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02-03-2017, 07:59 AM (This post was last modified: 02-03-2017 08:58 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Can the study of scripture be done in a scientific way?
(02-03-2017 05:17 AM)hecrow55 Wrote:  Jesus teaches God is a Spirit. He also says that the words He speaks are spirit. Therefore, God is The Word.

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

I'll go deeper into this later today. Have to get ready for work.

Circular, and a non-sequitur. Facepalm
It's not often we see TWO fallacies in the same argument. Congrats !

There is absolutely NOTHING "scientific" at all about any of this nonsense. (But at least you do recognize the importance of science, which the writers of the Bible didn't even know about).
You have not established by what method you determine that one quote references another. Any one of them could refer to any number of things.
We could find things in Harry Potter that are similar to old quotes. Does that prove him to be special and true ?

You have not established the authority of anything you're talking about, OR your own competence to do so, and why we should accept you preaching at us.
I'm sure you're a nice old fart, Harold, but seriously, you should find yourself a new hobby. Have you thought of golf or shuffleboard ?
You're not too good at this preaching thing, and you're certainly not a Biblical expert of any sort.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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02-03-2017, 09:19 AM
RE: Can the study of scripture be done in a scientific way?
(02-03-2017 04:54 AM)hecrow55 Wrote:  Mat 23:12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.

There are many biblical examples of this being true.

Again, you're using the Bible to prove the Bible is true.

Many things in Harry Potter are true because it's true in other parts of Harry Potter therefore, according to your line of "thinking" <------ Laughat Lord Voldemort scientifically exists.


Um. Nope. That's not the way science works.

Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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02-03-2017, 09:30 AM
RE: Can the study of scripture be done in a scientific way?
(02-03-2017 07:56 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  ... So, if you are looking for a better understanding of Christianity and the Judeao-Chrisitan god via science...

There is nothing "Judeo" about the Christian god.
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02-03-2017, 09:33 AM
RE: Can the study of scripture be done in a scientific way?
(02-03-2017 09:30 AM)Aliza Wrote:  
(02-03-2017 07:56 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  ... So, if you are looking for a better understanding of Christianity and the Judeao-Chrisitan god via science...

There is nothing "Judeo" about the Christian god.

I corrected it to Judeo-Christian. As in, the god of the Jews and the god of the Christians is the same god.

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02-03-2017, 09:35 AM
RE: Can the study of scripture be done in a scientific way?
(02-03-2017 09:33 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(02-03-2017 09:30 AM)Aliza Wrote:  There is nothing "Judeo" about the Christian god.

I corrected it to Judeo-Christian. As in, the god of the Jews and the god of the Christians is the same god.

We do not view them as the same.
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