Poll: Can the bomber be rehabilitated to be useful to the better evolution of our wonderful society?
yes, the bomber can be a commendable person of society
no, the bomber is not worth our time and efforts, and should be executed expeditiously, like Timothy McVeigh
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Note: This is a public poll, other users will be able to see what you voted for.
Can we rehabilitate the convicted?
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20-04-2013, 09:57 AM
RE: Can we rehabilitate the convicted?
(19-04-2013 11:08 PM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  Some probably can, but only if they choose to be rehabilitated.

The ones that won't, well.......they get the best seat in the house.

That's a pretty simplistic view. It assumes that the state is actually interested in rehabilitation and that the choice is entirely up to the individual. The inconvenient other side of this is that those who want to be rehabilitated (but who the state decides they are not going to rehabilitate) also get the best seat in the house.

"Which is more likely: that the whole natural order is suspended, or that a jewish minx should tell a lie?"- David Hume
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20-04-2013, 10:24 AM
RE: Can we rehabilitate the convicted?
(20-04-2013 09:57 AM)Heathen Wrote:  
(19-04-2013 11:08 PM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  Some probably can, but only if they choose to be rehabilitated.

The ones that won't, well.......they get the best seat in the house.

That's a pretty simplistic view. It assumes that the state is actually interested in rehabilitation and that the choice is entirely up to the individual. The inconvenient other side of this is that those who want to be rehabilitated (but who the state decides they are not going to rehabilitate) also get the best seat in the house.

Obviously it's pretty complicated. I'm saying the last comment tongue in cheek. There's also the fact that we are creating a convict caste in this country with private prisons, sex offender registries, employers who refuse to hire convicted felons, etc. It makes it almost impossible for the paroled to live a straight life - kinda like the plight of Jean Valjean in Les Miserables.

What they need to do is

1) Clean up the prisons. Get rid of the gangs. You either clean up your act or be prepared to spend the next 20 years of your sentence doing 23 hours a day in a 6 x 6 x 9 ft cell and fed only water and the loaf. Assaults, murders and other crimes within prison walls will not be tolerated. There is no death penalty for an offender on the outside. But if you murder someone on the inside or a prison guard, you will do the hot squat for it.

3) Prison life will be spartan and few frills. There will be an incentive program for good behavior. Inmates will be offered a number of useful trades which are immediately transferable to the outside world and with this incarceration will gradually shift to more of a normalized 'real world' environment albeit still behind prison walls.

4) When an offender has served his/her time and been released or paroled there will be immediate so called 'intermediate' work programs on the outside for recently released offenders. The pay will be modest but will be able to afford them a decent quality of life. Upon completion of a 5 year job in one of these programs, their employment ends here and they return to society with a clean criminal record. It shall be unlawful for any employer to deny them employment based on prior offenses. For violent felons, a note shall be placed on their records denying them sale or possession of a firearm for an additional 5 years.

Just some ideas on how one might go about reforming our current prison system.

Oh, and one other thing: Get the private interests out of the correctional system. Locking offenders up should be one thing not done to make a profit because it begins to incentivise incarceration, which is a bad thing. There are plenty of example as to how this fails.

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20-04-2013, 10:34 AM
RE: Can we rehabilitate the convicted?
(20-04-2013 09:57 AM)Heathen Wrote:  That's a pretty simplistic view. It assumes that the state is actually interested in rehabilitation and that the choice is entirely up to the individual. The inconvenient other side of this is that those who want to be rehabilitated (but who the state decides they are not going to rehabilitate) also get the best seat in the house.

Your, simplistic view, assumes that rehabilitation is always possible, and it is probably because you have never taken the time to listen to criminals and stepped into their shoes and learn how difficult their lives are compared to your privileged lily white life.

Remember the intelligence bell curve of society is a valid theory - most people are not very smart - criminals tend to be in the lower end, and cannot perform the rat race that the masses, like you, perform. They do not like the responsibility of having to adhere to a restricted budget and regulated behavior - they want to do and think freely - they want to be free thinkers. Rehab is not free thinking. Rehab is the indoctrination of behavioral practices.

rehab is kind of like a religion - you understand that, don't you???

Humanism - ontological doctrine that posits that humans define reality
Theism - ontological doctrine that posits a supernatural entity creates and defines reality
Atheism - political doctrine opposed to theist doctrine in public policy
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20-04-2013, 11:52 AM (This post was last modified: 20-04-2013 12:07 PM by TrainWreck.)
RE: Can we rehabilitate the convicted?
(17-04-2013 01:33 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(17-04-2013 12:40 PM)TrainWreck Wrote:  It looks like the bomber built the bomb on site.
What do you mean?

I came across a report, from a professional runner, that there was a large scale bomb search befor the marathon, indicating that it was an unusual event to have such a search; but it probably was not a credible claim. And the report of it being a bomb constructed of a pressure cooker - I'm trying to visualize the dimensions of such a bomb, and to get it into an average looking undetectable package that had to be delivered, was difficult to imagine. And that lead me to consider that the pressure cooker had to be on site for the bomb search. But, I guess, there are smaller pressure cookers than that which I am familiar with.

Humanism - ontological doctrine that posits that humans define reality
Theism - ontological doctrine that posits a supernatural entity creates and defines reality
Atheism - political doctrine opposed to theist doctrine in public policy
I am right, and you are wrong - I hope you die peacefullyCool
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20-04-2013, 12:30 PM (This post was last modified: 20-04-2013 12:56 PM by Heathen.)
RE: Can we rehabilitate the convicted?
(20-04-2013 10:34 AM)TrainWreck Wrote:  Your, simplistic view, assumes that rehabilitation is always possible, and it is probably because you have never taken the time to listen to criminals and stepped into their shoes and learn how difficult their lives are compared to your privileged lily white life.

My simplistic view? My entire point was that this issue is not simplistic at all. Further, I did not state that rehabilitation is always possible. I actually said precisely the opposite. You need to slow down a bit while reading.

My privileged lily white life? You have no idea who I am.

(20-04-2013 10:34 AM)TrainWreck Wrote:  Remember the intelligence bell curve of society is a valid theory - most people are not very smart - criminals tend to be in the lower end, and cannot perform the rat race that the masses, like you, perform. They do not like the responsibility of having to adhere to a restricted budget and regulated behavior - they want to do and think freely - they want to be free thinkers. Rehab is not free thinking. Rehab is the indoctrination of behavioral practices.

What a load of crap. Criminals are not only of the lower class; pick-pockets, dope dealers and gang-bangers. Criminals come from all sectors of society, the difference is in the perception/acceptance of certain types of crimes and the disproportionate sentences meted out depending on ones status in society and the resources they have at their disposal.

Again, you have no idea who I am. Quit with the assumptions.

(20-04-2013 10:34 AM)TrainWreck Wrote:  rehab is kind of like a religion - you understand that, don't you???

So... are you an anti-rehabist?

"Which is more likely: that the whole natural order is suspended, or that a jewish minx should tell a lie?"- David Hume
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20-04-2013, 02:59 PM
RE: Can we rehabilitate the convicted?
(20-04-2013 12:30 PM)Heathen Wrote:  . . . the difference is in the perception/acceptance of certain types of crimes and the disproportionate sentences meted out depending on ones status in society and the resources they have at their disposal.
BowingBowingBowing

You are the man we are looking for! Have you any ideas on how to go about implementing these ideas into society??? Can you write a complete description for the organization of the more just criminal justice system? Can you write a description for the organization of the more just society? Do you know any atheists who are practiced at community organizing, and may be familiar with social contracts, organizational charters, and political constitutions?

Humanism - ontological doctrine that posits that humans define reality
Theism - ontological doctrine that posits a supernatural entity creates and defines reality
Atheism - political doctrine opposed to theist doctrine in public policy
I am right, and you are wrong - I hope you die peacefullyCool
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20-04-2013, 03:02 PM (This post was last modified: 20-04-2013 03:09 PM by TrainWreck.)
RE: Can we rehabilitate the convicted?
(17-04-2013 12:41 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  Does it matter if he's white or black?
Gee whiz, I don't know - why don't you ask the Heathen, he's not prejudiced, like me.
(20-04-2013 12:30 PM)Heathen Wrote:  . . . the difference is in the perception/acceptance of certain types of crimes and the disproportionate sentences meted out depending on ones status in society and the resources they have at their disposal.
He sounds like he understands part of the corruption. I wonder what his view is about the public defender scam I'll bet he is committed not to expose that - I'll bet he is a puke, good for nothing, public pretender.

Humanism - ontological doctrine that posits that humans define reality
Theism - ontological doctrine that posits a supernatural entity creates and defines reality
Atheism - political doctrine opposed to theist doctrine in public policy
I am right, and you are wrong - I hope you die peacefullyCool
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20-04-2013, 08:50 PM (This post was last modified: 20-04-2013 08:56 PM by Heathen.)
RE: Can we rehabilitate the convicted?
(20-04-2013 02:59 PM)TrainWreck Wrote:  
(20-04-2013 12:30 PM)Heathen Wrote:  . . . the difference is in the perception/acceptance of certain types of crimes and the disproportionate sentences meted out depending on ones status in society and the resources they have at their disposal.
BowingBowingBowing

You are the man we are looking for! Have you any ideas on how to go about implementing these ideas into society??? Can you write a complete description for the organization of the more just criminal justice system? Can you write a description for the organization of the more just society? Do you know any atheists who are practiced at community organizing, and may be familiar with social contracts, organizational charters, and political constitutions?

I have it all worked out in great detail and I'm sure that you will find that I am a most wonderful, compassionate, yet firm Supreme Leader. But I do lack the organizational skills to implement my plan. Is this an offer of assistance? I could sure use it.

"Which is more likely: that the whole natural order is suspended, or that a jewish minx should tell a lie?"- David Hume
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21-04-2013, 02:42 PM
RE: Can we rehabilitate the convicted?
(20-04-2013 10:34 AM)TrainWreck Wrote:  
(20-04-2013 09:57 AM)Heathen Wrote:  That's a pretty simplistic view. It assumes that the state is actually interested in rehabilitation and that the choice is entirely up to the individual. The inconvenient other side of this is that those who want to be rehabilitated (but who the state decides they are not going to rehabilitate) also get the best seat in the house.

Your, simplistic view, assumes that rehabilitation is always possible, and it is probably because you have never taken the time to listen to criminals and stepped into their shoes and learn how difficult their lives are compared to your privileged lily white life.

Remember the intelligence bell curve of society is a valid theory - most people are not very smart - criminals tend to be in the lower end, and cannot perform the rat race that the masses, like you, perform. They do not like the responsibility of having to adhere to a restricted budget and regulated behavior - they want to do and think freely - they want to be free thinkers. Rehab is not free thinking. Rehab is the indoctrination of behavioral practices.

rehab is kind of like a religion - you understand that, don't you???

So some people might be too stupid to be rehabilitated? Seriously?

If anything routine is something a less intelligent person would grab hold to, the exact opposite what you claim. These people wouldn't want to do much independent thinking, they'll go with whatever is easiest and if doing something day in and day out provides this, it is something to grab hold to.

I also gotta ask, how is rehab similar to religion?
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21-04-2013, 09:37 PM
RE: Can we rehabilitate the convicted?
Don't religions force people how to think and behave - isn't that one of the atheist arguments against religion???

Doesn't rehab indoctrinate people as to how to think and behave - you think rehab is something other than that?

Humanism - ontological doctrine that posits that humans define reality
Theism - ontological doctrine that posits a supernatural entity creates and defines reality
Atheism - political doctrine opposed to theist doctrine in public policy
I am right, and you are wrong - I hope you die peacefullyCool
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