Can we stop blaming Trump?
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21-03-2017, 05:48 PM (This post was last modified: 21-03-2017 05:56 PM by RocketSurgeon76.)
RE: Can we stop blaming Trump?
(21-03-2017 05:02 PM)Alla Wrote:  Yes, progressives want to regulate everything they can. May be there is one exception - vaginas. But I have this feeling that if progressives had power they would start to regulate vaginas. I read some ideas on this forum about overpopulation.
Progressives at the same time don't like law and order. They attack police, they don't want to enforce laws they don't like. They are for open borders. Cities that are governed by progressives have lots of crimes.
Please, let me know if I am wrong.

Maybe I can help. It appears to me that you're basically repeating right-wing talk radio "talking points", rather than factual claims. I mean no disrespect by this; I simply think you have been taken in by the propaganda efforts of those with a right-wing agenda.

I'll break them down for you as best I can.

1) Progressives most certainly do not want to "regulate everything they can"; they regulate only what they must, in order to prevent people by being hurt when individuals or corporations feel they can place profit-motive over the health and/or safety of citizens. Companies have only one motivation: profit (increasing share price and shareholder payouts, as well). There's a loooong history in this country (look up "The Guilded Age" and/or read about the reasons behind the New Deal, if you want to know more) of people being ground under the wheels of America's business rapaciousness. Progressives don't want to regulate anything other than "things that hurt, poison, or kill people". We have nothing against businesses and we like profits. We simply place people over profits at all times.

The people who tell you that Progressives want to regulate everything they can are those who have a profit motive in being unregulated-- able to poison the river instead of paying out of their profit margin for proper cleanup, for instance. Damned regulators!

I also find it funny that your next subject is "law and order", when these are laws that maintain the order of our natural resources and ecosystems, maintain clean air and water, and protect our public health. Next to those priorities, laws against stealing my car are trivial.

2) "Law and Order" is a very nebulous term. As most western European and Scandinavian countries have long proved, it does not require a militarized, aggressive police force to maintain a civil peace. The police in this country are made less safe by the aggressive "submit!" approach to policing, especially given the long history of racial profiling and outright discrimination in so many communties (which is getting better... but that's hard to sell to a kid in Queens who just got "stop-and-frisked" for the tenth time this week, and just had his innocent friend go to jail because the cops thought he looked kinda like someone who actually did commit a crime). People fight back, after a while. And this makes the police even more frightened and more likely to resort to violence. The mistrust of the innocent people who have been abused results in a wall of silence that lets bad people get away with more, and endanger both the innocent around them and the officers (even the majority who are good ones) who go into those neighborhoods.

It is an outright lie that the left dislikes or disrespects police. We simply do not automatically defer to our police forces, or make excuses for violations of the rights of citizens (even those who are suspects/criminals), and we wish to ensure that our police force is always improved-- starting with "fewer violations of the rights of citizens". Only if you see automatic deference and unquestioning obedience as "respect" can you think what the left does is because they hate police or law & order. Guess who does have a vested interest in the automatic deference and unquestioning obedience of most (poor) Americans?

Again, the people who are telling you the left dislikes police are the ones with a vested interest... ones who are trying to excuse a style of policing that allows them to continue a system with shady (to put it nicely) roots, that serves the order of their lily-white "White Flight" neighborhoods outside the cities, while the inner core (and increasingly, the rural between-suburb areas) rots away.

3) "They are for open borders" - who is "they"? Is questioning the way America has been practicing its border control, and the inhumane treatment of those who do cross that border, the same as being for open borders? Because I've seen a lot my fellow Progressives say the latter... but I've never heard anyone say they're in favor of "open borders". What I am in favor of, for instance, is not punishing the children of a criminal for his crimes, such as we do when we export children whose parents came over illegally, and people (most of them churches, from what I understand) who push back against the way in which we conduct our treatment of our brown-skinned neighbors.

However, there may be groups I have yet to hear about, who somehow might be said to represent leftist mainstream thought (I would be surprised if so), and if you know of who "they" actually are, I'd be more than curious to have a look at what they actually claim. I may not be as far on the left as I think I am, in that case. Please illuminate me.

4) Your claim, "Cities that are governed by progressives have lots of crimes." is easy to test. Google Is Your Friend™. Big Grin

Is it all progressive-led cities on average? Or are we talking about one or two "big crime" big cities? It would change my reply, knowing which you mean. I'm going to guess you mean Baltimore (#7) and Detroit (#2), the ones that right-wing talk radio seems to obsess about.

But even if you are correct in your correlation of crime in cities "governed by progressives", there are many other factors which may play into that correlation, and the conclusion you are implying by this connection may not be for reasons anything like you think they are. For example, people may live in a city that was once highly conservative in its policymaking, and may have grown tired of it, electing Democrats to office, but still are living under conditions of economic depression from exported industries and a continuing entrenched legacy of crime in the rotten-out, economic desert areas, that will not be easily "cured" no matter who comes into power.

However, I happen to live in the middle of four of the cities on the "top 10 list" of most crime, St. Louis (#1) and Kansas City (#10), Missouri, Memphis (#4), Tennessee, and Little Rock (#8), Arkansas. If you think the problems in any of these cities have anything to do with liberal/progressive leadership and a laxity of law enforcement, you're high off your ass. With all due respect.

If I am mistaken in my assumptions about your positions/statements (which I had to make in order to answer at all), please educate me. I also like to learn. Smile

Edit: My cities list was incomplete and incorrect. Fixed.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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21-03-2017, 05:50 PM (This post was last modified: 21-03-2017 05:59 PM by Alla.)
RE: Can we stop blaming Trump?
abaris Wrote:Have you looked at the Gorsuch's record? I believe, he comes from the 10th circuit. Citizens United, which basically cements corporate bribery of politicians, check
I am pro First Amendment. If judge defends the First Amendment I like this judge.

abaris Wrote:Opposing reproductive rights, check. Anti LGBT rights, check
Did he say that he opposes all those rights?!!!

abaris Wrote:Anti environmentalist potections, check. Anti civil rights, check. Anti workers rights, check. Anti immigrants, check, of course.
WOW! When did he say that he is anti all those rights?

abaris Wrote:Well, maybe you're against all of this too, which would make you a despicable person,
Yes, yes, I am evil and despicable person.

TO CLYDE LEE

This is why I am afraid of progressives. If you are anti something in their humble opinion you are evil and despicable. I can only imagine what would happen to me if people like ABARIS had unlimited power.

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21-03-2017, 05:56 PM
RE: Can we stop blaming Trump?
Jay Vogelsong Wrote:Alla expresses prejudices against liberals
No, I share my humble opinion about progressives. Is this true or false that progressives want to give federal government as much power as possible?
Is this true or false that progressives regulate, regulate and regulate?
Is this true or false that progressives want to tax, tax and tax people?
Is this true or false that progressives call people names Like "racist", "bigot, "despicable", "sexist" if those people disagree with them?
Let me know.

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21-03-2017, 06:04 PM (This post was last modified: 21-03-2017 06:09 PM by Thoreauvian.)
RE: Can we stop blaming Trump?
(21-03-2017 05:56 PM)Alla Wrote:  
Jay Vogelsong Wrote:Alla expresses prejudices against liberals
No, I share my humble opinion about progressives. Is this true or false that progressives want to give federal government as much power as possible?
Is this true or false that progressives regulate, regulate and regulate?
Is this true or false that progressives want to tax, tax and tax people?
Is this true or false that progressives call people names Like "racist", "bigot, "despicable", "sexist" if those people disagree with them?
Let me know.

You do realize, don't you, that the federal government is comprised of our representatives? Progressives want to give power to the people themselves, through our representatives. The alternative is to leave too much power with business interests. Federal government powers balance out business powers. The states alone can't do it. That's the reason for regulations and taxes. Unless you believe our national economy is only for the winners, and not for everyone, then what are the alternatives? Please refer to what RocketSurgeon76 wrote for the rest.

Edit: For the record, my sister and I are not on speaking terms because of her condescension to Democratic policies and to anyone who supports them (me for instance).

I would estimate that a vocal minority of progressives use browbeating techniques, but certainly not all. Whenever you paint everyone in the same group with the same brush, you are expressing prejudice.
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21-03-2017, 06:15 PM
RE: Can we stop blaming Trump?
(21-03-2017 05:56 PM)Alla Wrote:  Is this true or false that progressives regulate, regulate and regulate?

I explained this in the above, but the short version is that no one wants unnecessary regulation. That's just silly. It's simply a question of what we regulate and why. I would humbly submit to you that the people who are complaining about regulation are paid well by people who would sharply increase their profit motives by being able to poison me and my fellow Americans.

(21-03-2017 05:56 PM)Alla Wrote:  Is this true or false that progressives want to tax, tax and tax people?

Utterly false. Most progressive tax plans tax more people for less amount. We believe in taxing more from people who are more secure, financially, rather than increasing the burdens on those who are barely living paycheck to paycheck. Half of Americans make less than $30,000 a year. They cannot shoulder so much of the burden, and yet deserve to live in a land that gives them more freedom to move up (and shoulder more burden) because they are not bankrupted just at the edge of success by the illness of a spouse, for instance. As you become more financially "above water", you are no longer burdened by many of the issues that are every day struggles for working-class and lower-middle-class Americans, and should be proud to shoulder more of the weight. Only greed says that they should not see this as a duty of benefiting from a country whose freedoms and opportunities-- on a level playing field, which we seek to establish/maintain-- and then turning around and having the honor of taking up more of the national burden.

It's simply a matter of how much the tax burden increases as you move up the ladder, and when/where, and the elimination of loopholes created by and for the wealthy that let them pay less of their fair share-- sometimes, famously, less than the percent paid by their own secretaries. For shame!

(21-03-2017 05:56 PM)Alla Wrote:  Is this true or false that progressives call people names Like "racist", "bigot, "despicable", "sexist" if those people disagree with them?

That is ridiculous. People can go overboard with their slinging of unfair labels, certainly-- I hope you realize how much the right wingers do this to us, right?-- but on the whole I reserve the use of the terms to apply only when one has said something that is actually racist, or ignorant of the power structure of America's historical (and some argue still-entrenched) legacy of white supremacy that has done damage to the communities we are now blaming for the systemic failure. That is ignorant, but not necessarily racist in the classic sense of the word, and it would be unfair to use the term.

However, in conversations beyond count, I have heard conservatives saying things that are genuinely racist, and they should be called on it, even if they hide the racist comments behind a "common sense" pretense, and a persecution complex that screams like a dog's chew-toy every time he thinks he can get someone to look like they are the fool for calling him what he is. I recently had to pull out of a strong envolvement with a gaming league because I had held my tongue long enough among many conservatives-- not identifying myself as a liberal, at first-- to overhear what they say when they think people agree, or are not listening, or will simply not care. After several crossed the line, one night, I dressed them down and pulled out of the group, much to my chagrin. Sad

In any case, people may unfairly use the word, yes, but we should be able to call a spoon a spoon, when we see a spoon. If the person does it simply because they disagree with you, then they are a douchebag, not a liberal... the same applies to the douchebag conservatives among whom I gamed, then exodus'ed from; I know and love many conservatives who have not a racist bone in their bodies, and would never knowingly support any system if they believed it to have racist intent or function. It would be unfair to characterize conservatives according to the actions of this idiotic group, would it not?

Might I suggest to you that the person who told you these things about liberals/progressives was trying to "poison the well", in advance, about these ideas, before you learned in your own mind what they were? It means a lot to me that you have the integrity to ask. Heart

(21-03-2017 05:56 PM)Alla Wrote:  Let me know.

Hope it worked!

Please ask anything you like. You know I will (eventually) elaborate at-length. Big Grin

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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21-03-2017, 06:44 PM
RE: Can we stop blaming Trump?
TO RS76


RS76, thank you for your response. I read everything you have said.
Let's forget about right-wing talk radio. I will share with you my own opinion.
I am not against regulations. I want people to be safe and healthy. There are many smart and important regulations. But before I heard any wing talk radio I realized that Americans are not so free in their daily lives as I thought they would be.
I realized that I have less freedom in the USA parks and forests than I had in Ukraine. Less freedom when I have to remodel my house or my property(land).
When my husband worked in Boise at the construction site he and other workers had to do morning physical exercises and they were allowed to drink only water. My husband who is Latino(oppressed minority) concluded:" those who made those rules must be stupid Democrats/socialists". He probably was right, not that Democrats are stupid, but that the rules are stupid and come from progressives.

English is my second language.
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21-03-2017, 06:49 PM
RE: Can we stop blaming Trump?
TO RS76, I read your second post, I will respond when I have time. I see that you make some good points. Thank you, RS76 for willing to explain to me where you think I am wrong. I admit that I may be wrong.

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21-03-2017, 06:53 PM
RE: Can we stop blaming Trump?
(21-03-2017 06:04 PM)Jay Vogelsong Wrote:  
(21-03-2017 05:56 PM)Alla Wrote:  No, I share my humble opinion about progressives. Is this true or false that progressives want to give federal government as much power as possible?
Is this true or false that progressives regulate, regulate and regulate?
Is this true or false that progressives want to tax, tax and tax people?
Is this true or false that progressives call people names Like "racist", "bigot, "despicable", "sexist" if those people disagree with them?
Let me know.

You do realize, don't you, that the federal government is comprised of our representatives? Progressives want to give power to the people themselves, through our representatives. The alternative is to leave too much power with business interests. Federal government powers balance out business powers. The states alone can't do it. That's the reason for regulations and taxes. Unless you believe our national economy is only for the winners, and not for everyone, then what are the alternatives? Please refer to what RocketSurgeon76 wrote for the rest.

Edit: For the record, my sister and I are not on speaking terms because of her condescension to Democratic policies and to anyone who supports them (me for instance).

I would estimate that a vocal minority of progressives use browbeating techniques, but certainly not all. Whenever you paint everyone in the same group with the same brush, you are expressing prejudice.

I will respond tomorrow. You should talk to your sister and she should talk to you.

English is my second language.
I AM DEPLORABLE AND IRREDEEMABLE
SHE PERSISTED WE RESISTED
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21-03-2017, 07:56 PM
RE: Can we stop blaming Trump?
I am turning in to bed early, tonight (not feeling well), but I will likely be up in the wee hours, sometime. PTSD: a few hours of sleep at a time, a few hours at a time.

I apologize for being absent so soon after dropping a message of that size in the window!

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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21-03-2017, 09:10 PM
RE: Can we stop blaming Trump?
(21-03-2017 06:44 PM)Alla Wrote:  TO RS76


RS76, thank you for your response. I read everything you have said.
Let's forget about right-wing talk radio. I will share with you my own opinion.
I am not against regulations. I want people to be safe and healthy. There are many smart and important regulations. But before I heard any wing talk radio I realized that Americans are not so free in their daily lives as I thought they would be.
I realized that I have less freedom in the USA parks and forests than I had in Ukraine. Less freedom when I have to remodel my house or my property(land).
When my husband worked in Boise at the construction site he and other workers had to do morning physical exercises and they were allowed to drink only water. My husband who is Latino(oppressed minority) concluded:" those who made those rules must be stupid Democrats/socialists". He probably was right, not that Democrats are stupid, but that the rules are stupid and come from progressives.

Those rules concerning morning exercise and the drinking of water sound like company policies, not regulations put in place by lawmakers. If he hated it so much he of course wasn't being forced to work there, was he?

The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it. (G.B.Shaw)
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