Can we talk about this bullshit for a sec thanks.
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23-09-2016, 02:34 PM
RE: Can we talk about this bullshit for a sec thanks.
(23-09-2016 11:30 AM)Impulse Wrote:  Because terrorists aren't putting their details in nice public places that make them easy to find. And, by the way, phone taps, building searches, etc. are also an invasion of privacy even with warrants. The difference is it's legal, but anyone who would abuse private information can do so just as easily with information obtained with a warrant.
How would you feel about say... Zimbabwean government having similar powers to NSA for reading your private information, if you were a Zimbabwean citizen? They do actually have the tech IIRC. Bought from China. They were early and eager customers for software to keep their citizens under surveillance. If you think the NSA will always be these starry eyed defenders of justice, *especially* with such powers at their command, I think you're a bit... naive. Now they're looking for terrorists, what happens when they start looking for communists or Muslims (a la Donald Trump) or some other crowd?

Quote:No, stupid is expecting results while tying their hands and feet and blindfolding and gagging them.
Personally I believe making there not be a reason for the terrorism is an effective method to remove terrorist threats. i.e. diplomacy. By the time you get to stripping away people's privacy rights your chances of actually stopping a determined attack are effectively zero (ETA: IMO. I'm obviously no expert). Sure you might stop the odd amateur bomb maker.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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23-09-2016, 02:57 PM
RE: Can we talk about this bullshit for a sec thanks.
(22-09-2016 09:28 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  
Quote:Was there another way to do it?

It's called proper channels.

That's right. He should have tipped off Congress anonymously with his concerns and enough TS info to establish his credibility. If Congress didn't respond, or he didn't like the response then he could've escalated it. Only difficulty is the anonymously bit but if anyone would know how to do it he would.

#sigh
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23-09-2016, 03:17 PM
RE: Can we talk about this bullshit for a sec thanks.
I think doing what he did took a lot of balls, as they say. Snowden did everyone a great service by confirming suspicions that people had for a long time.
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23-09-2016, 06:43 PM
RE: Can we talk about this bullshit for a sec thanks.
(23-09-2016 02:34 PM)morondog Wrote:  How would you feel about say... Zimbabwean government having similar powers to NSA for reading your private information, if you were a Zimbabwean citizen? They do actually have the tech IIRC. Bought from China. They were early and eager customers for software to keep their citizens under surveillance. If you think the NSA will always be these starry eyed defenders of justice, *especially* with such powers at their command, I think you're a bit... naive. Now they're looking for terrorists, what happens when they start looking for communists or Muslims (a la Donald Trump) or some other crowd?
This is a bit like the gun control question. Do you ban all guns because someone might use one to kill someone? My answer is no. Yes, there is potential for abuse by the NSA. But I happen to think the good that can come out of it is worth the risk. But it's also a valid question. I'm sure if I had reason to believe that the information was being used by the NSA primarily for "wrong reasons", I would probably change my mind. But I don't have reason to think so. Naive or not, I do believe at least most of the NSA staff are looking for terrorists and it fills their time enough not to stray. Besides, intelligence agencies from different countries do this kind of stuff all the time and no one asks for permission. They just don't have people publicizing what they do like happened with the NSA.

(23-09-2016 02:34 PM)morondog Wrote:  Personally I believe making there not be a reason for the terrorism is an effective method to remove terrorist threats. i.e. diplomacy. By the time you get to stripping away people's privacy rights your chances of actually stopping a determined attack are effectively zero (ETA: IMO. I'm obviously no expert). Sure you might stop the odd amateur bomb maker.
I certainly agree that everything should be done first to reduce reasons for terrorism. However, there are plenty of terrorists that aren't going to change no matter what is done. In addition, many are born and bred to be terrorists and they don't know anything else. I don't agree that information gained in the way the NSA is doing will be too late to stop an attack. It just depends on the timing. Besides, the amateur bomb maker is also worth stopping.

@DonaldTrump, Patriotism is not honoring your flag no matter what your country/leader does. It's doing whatever it takes to make your country the best it can be as long as its not violent.
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23-09-2016, 06:59 PM
RE: Can we talk about this bullshit for a sec thanks.
(22-09-2016 10:46 AM)Impulse Wrote:  
(22-09-2016 10:38 AM)DLJ Wrote:  I'll take privacy, please.

Thank you.

Yes

Just curious, why? If all the government is doing is searching for bad people, why would you care if they're in your business?

Are you truly that naive?

Atheism is NOT a Religion. It's A Personal Relationship With Reality!
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24-09-2016, 04:08 AM
RE: Can we talk about this bullshit for a sec thanks.
(23-09-2016 06:43 PM)Impulse Wrote:  
(23-09-2016 02:34 PM)morondog Wrote:  Personally I believe making there not be a reason for the terrorism is an effective method to remove terrorist threats. i.e. diplomacy. By the time you get to stripping away people's privacy rights your chances of actually stopping a determined attack are effectively zero (ETA: IMO. I'm obviously no expert). Sure you might stop the odd amateur bomb maker.
I certainly agree that everything should be done first to reduce reasons for terrorism. However, there are plenty of terrorists that aren't going to change no matter what is done. In addition, many are born and bred to be terrorists and they don't know anything else. I don't agree that information gained in the way the NSA is doing will be too late to stop an attack. It just depends on the timing. Besides, the amateur bomb maker is also worth stopping.

Why does terrorism work? Because it's asymmetric. The idea is to spread fear by making everyone, including non-combatants, feel that they are a target. In actual fact there are myriad other things that are way more of a threat to your life than terrorists, but terrorists and those who profit from terrorism, including Donald Trump and his ilk, want you to think about *them* and not other things. So it's all about doing *big* flashy things that kill lots of people in one go.

Sure security is important but buggered if I want to surrender my privacy in the cause. I am willing to accept a certain level of risk of terrorism as I am willing to accept a certain level of risk of malaria or being hit by a runaway truck. Surrendering privacy means that somewhere, someone - government - has the dirt on me. Not necessarily anything incriminating, but probably just enough to blackmail me with. You know. I slept with so and so's wife that time he was away and I'll be exposed if I don't do as they say - a word in his ear, an anonymous phone call. Mundane stuff, but stuff that I don't want known. Now imagine that *everyone* including opposition politicians, has that kind of dirt somewhere in the NSA archives.

Government having the dirt is worse than anyone else, because it means that they control me - if they want a chanting crowd of supporters for President Trump all they have to do is call me up. It's not 100% simple, but it gives them a great big lever they can pull. As long as the guy in charge of the lever is a Good Guy ™ I'm OK, but how the hell do you prevent it being a bad guy?

My answer is: by not creating the lever in the first place. My thoughts, my letters, my communications are *mine*. No one else's. By what right does anyone assert that they can look at them? People in government are people just like me. Not better than me. Not the schoolteacher in school and me the pipsqueak kid. They have no right to that kind of power.

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If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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24-09-2016, 04:10 AM
RE: Can we talk about this bullshit for a sec thanks.
(24-09-2016 04:08 AM)morondog Wrote:  
(23-09-2016 06:43 PM)Impulse Wrote:  I certainly agree that everything should be done first to reduce reasons for terrorism. However, there are plenty of terrorists that aren't going to change no matter what is done. In addition, many are born and bred to be terrorists and they don't know anything else. I don't agree that information gained in the way the NSA is doing will be too late to stop an attack. It just depends on the timing. Besides, the amateur bomb maker is also worth stopping.

Why does terrorism work? Because it's asymmetric. The idea is to spread fear by making everyone, including non-combatants, feel that they are a target. In actual fact there are myriad other things that are way more of a threat to your life than terrorists, but terrorists and those who profit from terrorism, including Donald Trump and his ilk, want you to think about *them* and not other things. So it's all about doing *big* flashy things that kill lots of people in one go.

Sure security is important but buggered if I want to surrender my privacy in the cause. I am willing to accept a certain level of risk of terrorism as I am willing to accept a certain level of risk of malaria or being hit by a runaway truck. Surrendering privacy means that somewhere, someone - government - has the dirt on me. Not necessarily anything incriminating, but probably just enough to blackmail me with. You know. I slept with so and so's wife that time he was away and I'll be exposed if I don't do as they say - a word in his ear, an anonymous phone call. Mundane stuff, but stuff that I don't want known. Now imagine that *everyone* including opposition politicians, has that kind of dirt somewhere in the NSA archives.

Government having the dirt is worse than anyone else, because it means that they control me - if they want a chanting crowd of supporters for President Trump all they have to do is call me up. It's not 100% simple, but it gives them a great big lever they can pull. As long as the guy in charge of the lever is a Good Guy ™ I'm OK, but how the hell do you prevent it being a bad guy?

My answer is: by not creating the lever in the first place. My thoughts, my letters, my communications are *mine*. No one else's. By what right does anyone assert that they can look at them? People in government are people just like me. Not better than me. Not the schoolteacher in school and me the pipsqueak kid. They have no right to that kind of power.
My thoughts exactly. Much better worded though.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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24-09-2016, 04:10 AM
RE: Can we talk about this bullshit for a sec thanks.
PS: Neither did the NSA ask for permission. But they're *very very good* at snooping.

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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24-09-2016, 04:27 AM
RE: Can we talk about this bullshit for a sec thanks.
PS: Impulse since you brought up guns too, here's a thought experiment. Imagine if the response to the latest mass shooting in the US was to insist that *everyone's* communications must be monitored 24/7 by the NSA. People who mention guns or who go to gun enthusiast websites will be marked as "persons of special interest". The NSA will have the right to look into you in great detail - not just gun owners, *everyone*.

Now tell me that's not a disproportionate response. Yet when it's the same thing regarding terrorism, not a thought experiment, something that *actually happened and continues to happen* people cheerfully think it's fine?

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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24-09-2016, 04:46 AM
RE: Can we talk about this bullshit for a sec thanks.
PPS: Because there's a lot of people involved in spying on one's own citizens, there's no guarantee that one of *them* is not a bad apple. Imagine the following. X works for the NSA and is a bit of a sex criminal. He uses the privileged position that he is in (he's just some low level flunky but he gets to look at people's files) to find pretty girls with some kind of secret, and then make them have sex with him. If you think this won't happen, look at the Catholic church. The organisation is riddled with scandal despite a. wanting to cover it up b. not wanting to accept paedophiles into their ranks as priests.

So even if the guys in charge are good guys, government sanctioned spying of this kind IMO is way beyond the pale of what's acceptable. Despite this it's already a fait accompli and getting it rooted out is probably going to be a difficult job even if there was political will to do so.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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