Can we talk about this bullshit for a sec thanks.
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24-09-2016, 04:41 PM
RE: Can we talk about this bullshit for a sec thanks.
(24-09-2016 03:49 PM)Impulse Wrote:  Well it is. He put the entire country at risk by exposing this to the entire world. It could affect international relations, tip off terrorists, etc. If that's not turning against your country, what is? There were better ways that he could have handled this.

Keeping quiet, taking the money and not talking for example. We could blissfully go about our lives unaware of all this shit.

I think you and I will have to disagree on this. IMO if enlightenment ideals are worth pursuing then they must be pursued in reality, not just on paper. Arguments of expediency just lead straight back to the kind of society I'd personally like to avoid. Paranoid, security minded and authoritarian.

So the fuck what if everyone else is doing it? That's their wrong. If North Korea decided to do it you'd decide to do it too in case you fell behind? What precisely is the difference that makes your society better than NK then? That you pay lip service to some kind of freedom and pretense of legality while not practicing it?

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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24-09-2016, 05:14 PM
RE: Can we talk about this bullshit for a sec thanks.
Again, it all depends on how the information is used. But we're going in circles now.

@DonaldTrump, Patriotism is not honoring your flag no matter what your country/leader does. It's doing whatever it takes to make your country the best it can be as long as its not violent.
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24-09-2016, 06:14 PM
RE: Can we talk about this bullshit for a sec thanks.
(24-09-2016 05:14 PM)Impulse Wrote:  Again, it all depends on how the information is used. But we're going in circles now.

The point has got nothing to do with how the information is used.
The point is that they shouldn't have the information to begin with.

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24-09-2016, 11:30 PM
RE: Can we talk about this bullshit for a sec thanks.
(24-09-2016 02:05 PM)Impulse Wrote:  However, when it comes to electronic communications, if you don't want the whole public to know about it, then find another way to communicate it. This is the reality that we are living in even without the NSA. That's another reason I'm not particularly concerned about potential abuses from the NSA. If people there are going to abuse the information, they will still do so even if the operations are formally stopped. Meanwhile, the potential gains will also be lost and really for nothing because you still have no privacy regardless, if you are communicating private information electronically.

That's not the point, though. A citizen should not have to take steps to avoid government intrusion into their private communications (aside from warranted criminal investigations, of course) -- because that is in the rulebook that the government itself goes by.

That is part of the social compact here in America. If the government considers it acceptable to change that compact, those rules, without the approval of its citizens, then in essence the action of the government is undermining the rule of law and governing by fiat.

That is not good governance and should not be accepted. The government should be subordinate to the will of the people, and obedient to the Constitution and to the laws that it has itself enacted.

Simply pointing out that private entities have access to that information is tu quoque argumentation, and entirely unconvincing. You can choose a different email provider much easier than you can choose different citizenship.

Quick question: can anyone reading this thread think of a single power granted to the American government that it hasn't abused at one point or another?
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25-09-2016, 12:04 AM
RE: Can we talk about this bullshit for a sec thanks.
(24-09-2016 05:14 PM)Impulse Wrote:  Again, it all depends on how the information is used. But we're going in circles now.

And this is the crux of it.

The American government has a long and sordid history of misusing information and people. Domestic spying, smear campaigns, domestic criminal activity authorized by the President in order to subvert the democratic process ... the whole nine yards. The intelligence apparatus of the US has been involved in too may domestic misdeeds to be trusted with this sort of power.

Will they keep trying to subvert our rights in pursuit of what they think is their mission? I have no doubt about it. But they will never get my stamp of approval for it. I might be stripped of my rights, but I will not abdicate them.
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25-09-2016, 06:08 AM
RE: Can we talk about this bullshit for a sec thanks.
The right to freedom and privacy is eroding.

The scary thing is that the current crop of young ones won't much care because they are growing up under 24/7 surveillance. The freedom of being grown up is scary even, to wit the many young people who move back in with their parents.

Makes me glad I am old - I value my freedom above all else, and privacy is a huge part of that. That brave new world where everyone is under surveillance is not for me.

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25-09-2016, 11:58 AM
RE: Can we talk about this bullshit for a sec thanks.
The question of right and wrong is fine when everyone plays nicely. However, that isn't the case. So, unfortunately, the question has become one of necessity. Terrorists couldn't care less about right and wrong. Nor could probably any intelligence agency in any country. If everyone else is prying into people's business, including that of the US, we would leave ourselves vulnerable by being the only ones to not follow suit. So the NSA's actions have become one of necessity. The only reason everyone is pointing the finger specifically at the NSA right now and not every other agency that is doing the same thing is because Snowden put it in the news by an action that undermines his own country. Then the coward went to hide in Russia. I guess we can all see where his allegiance lies. I never said because others are doing the same thing that it makes it right. What I was saying is that it makes it necessary.

@DonaldTrump, Patriotism is not honoring your flag no matter what your country/leader does. It's doing whatever it takes to make your country the best it can be as long as its not violent.
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25-09-2016, 02:47 PM
RE: Can we talk about this bullshit for a sec thanks.
(25-09-2016 11:58 AM)Impulse Wrote:  The question of right and wrong is fine when everyone plays nicely. However, that isn't the case. So, unfortunately, the question has become one of necessity. Terrorists couldn't care less about right and wrong. Nor could probably any intelligence agency in any country. If everyone else is prying into people's business, including that of the US, we would leave ourselves vulnerable by being the only ones to not follow suit. So the NSA's actions have become one of necessity. The only reason everyone is pointing the finger specifically at the NSA right now and not every other agency that is doing the same thing is because Snowden put it in the news by an action that undermines his own country. Then the coward went to hide in Russia. I guess we can all see where his allegiance lies. I never said because others are doing the same thing that it makes it right. What I was saying is that it makes it necessary.

Bolding mine.

But is it really necessary or gov want people to think so? Fear mongering dates long back, now it's terrorists who we are supposed to be afraid but in times past it were: communists, Jews, masons, witches.

Gov's are really good at overplaying the threats in order to tighten control over population.

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25-09-2016, 04:51 PM
RE: Can we talk about this bullshit for a sec thanks.
Honestly, I think it's common sense. In today's electronic world, of course all the intelligence agencies are using it to their advantage however they see fit. If you mean the government is hyping terrorism, I don't think so. There have been enough attacks to support the reality.

@DonaldTrump, Patriotism is not honoring your flag no matter what your country/leader does. It's doing whatever it takes to make your country the best it can be as long as its not violent.
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25-09-2016, 05:19 PM
RE: Can we talk about this bullshit for a sec thanks.
Can you point to any plots this massive surveillance has foiled?
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