Can you believe this?!
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13-04-2013, 09:26 AM
RE: Can you believe this?!
Do a little checking and you will find that the so called ag-gag laws are one of many model laws put forth by the "American Legislative Exchange Council" who have promoted these laws and others that are typically very pro business. I believe also some of the more egregious voter suppression laws are also included in their model laws.

Heywood you seem to ignore that there is a vast difference between a personal home and what is a very public business. It is after all food production, the public has a very real concern about how their food is produced a full right to know how. The public has very little right to know what happens in my house.
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13-04-2013, 09:55 AM
RE: Can you believe this?!
(12-04-2013 10:42 PM)Hughsie Wrote:  I couldn't care less. I don't have any crimes being committed in my house so what difference does it make? What if a plumber went into someone's house and saw a child being abused, should they keep their mouth shut to protect that person's privacy?

According to attorney Harvey Silverglate, each of us commits at least three felonies per day. Do you know which ones you've committed today and when?

The problem with entrapment is that you are being accused by a government representative and you must stand trial in a government law court, charged with a crime legislated by a government representative. Whether you're guilty of blatant child abuse or one of the myriad victimless crimes, the odds are stacked against you whether you're innocent or not. The prosecuting attorney needs a conviction on you in order to ensure a judgeship in the future. The cop who arrested you needs a conviction on you so his arrest record will look good and the judge who adjudicates the case wants to convict you so his political career will look good. None of these people get their "tough on crime" reputations, their promotions or their notoriety from seeing that justice is served, they get them from convictions v. lost cases. They know that once the news story comes out, you cannot defend yourself even if the reports of your crime are entirely falsified. Furthermore, they aren't spending their own money and there is no statute in place that forces the state to pay restitution to the wrongly accused and their is absolutely no liability on their part. Even if you were to successfully sue the state for restitution from a false conviction, these people don't pay a cent of it and their jobs aren't jeopardized.

I'm as vehemently opposed to cruelty to animals as anyone and it makes me sick to my stomach to see the way a lot of livestock are treated in these huge, government subsidized farms but allowing the state to entrap people is not the answer to the problem. When you support this sort of activity, you might think you are helping to prevent a case of animal cruelty and to be sure, that's possible. However, in doing so, you are ensuring that human cruelty will take place.

The beginning of wisdom is to call things by their right names. - Chinese Proverb
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13-04-2013, 04:42 PM
RE: Can you believe this?!
In what universe does this have to do with entrapment. I am not suggesting entrapment does not occur but the proper definition of entrapment is where a government agent suggests and aids illegal activities not when illegal activities are exposed.

I will agree that when the government comes after you they generally have all the weapons and the will to convict. It is why so many poor are convicted wrongly, they simply do not have the resources to protect themselves.

I would also point out that these laws are aimed at the public not the government, even the meat industry knows that would be too obvious. By my take on these laws say if I am passing by on a public road saw an activity just off the road and took a picture without permission of the owner of the ranch or whatever I would have done something illegal. I wonder does taking a photo of one of those notorious pig farms showing their waste pond overflowing and also taking water samples that show excess bacteria would that be unlawful.

I must agree here that taking employment in a meat packing plant or chicken ranch for the expressed purpose of documenting their activities is borderline. I cannot see where taking pictures from a public road of activities that are unlawful should be made illegal. If the ag-gag laws only pertain to someone entering your premisses and gathering data without your permission I may be able to accept them, it is my understanding they are more inclusive than this. I will do some research.

What is more than obvious in all this is that meat raising and processing in this country is so filled with examples of cruelty to animals and unsound activities that the appropriate trade organizations want any information about their activities to be controlled completely by them.

Anyone who lives in an agricultural state can see the differences just driving by. In West Marin the dairy ranches are largely organic and most have plentiful graze and room to roam. There are some exceptions but more so in the Central Valley where the dairy man relies on feed and the ground is all torn up and often people downwind complain of the smell.

Drive by virtually any feed lot and tell me that is not cruel to the cattle. Check out the coups used for raising turkeys often they are windowless with large fans to exhaust the stench and the heat is that not cruel on its face without having to enter the coup.

The fact that the meat industry feels the need to protect itself so completely tells us a lot, so does what we can see in plain sight.
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13-04-2013, 05:53 PM
RE: Can you believe this?!
I say this needs a fucking industrial strength face palm. This is the kind of shit that just makes me want to scream.

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13-04-2013, 06:30 PM
RE: Can you believe this?!
(13-04-2013 05:53 PM)smidgen Wrote:  I say this needs a fucking industrial strength face palm. This is the kind of shit that just makes me want to scream.


Which? These laws or the opposition to these laws?

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13-04-2013, 07:17 PM
RE: Can you believe this?!
First off I believe the privacy laws between my bathroom and a factory farm are slightly different (At least for now. You know how the states are about destroying constitutional rights)

I'm glad people go in and do sting operations on these companies. I personally want to know what it is I'm eating. Ignorance is not bliss in this area.

"People demand freedom of speech as a compensation for the freedom of thought which they seldom use." Soren Kierkegaard
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13-04-2013, 09:45 PM
RE: Can you believe this?!
(13-04-2013 04:42 PM)JAH Wrote:  In what universe does this have to do with entrapment. I am not suggesting entrapment does not occur but the proper definition of entrapment is where a government agent suggests and aids illegal activities not when illegal activities are exposed.

I will agree that when the government comes after you they generally have all the weapons and the will to convict. It is why so many poor are convicted wrongly, they simply do not have the resources to protect themselves.

I would also point out that these laws are aimed at the public not the government, even the meat industry knows that would be too obvious. By my take on these laws say if I am passing by on a public road saw an activity just off the road and took a picture without permission of the owner of the ranch or whatever I would have done something illegal. I wonder does taking a photo of one of those notorious pig farms showing their waste pond overflowing and also taking water samples that show excess bacteria would that be unlawful.

I must agree here that taking employment in a meat packing plant or chicken ranch for the expressed purpose of documenting their activities is borderline. I cannot see where taking pictures from a public road of activities that are unlawful should be made illegal. If the ag-gag laws only pertain to someone entering your premisses and gathering data without your permission I may be able to accept them, it is my understanding they are more inclusive than this. I will do some research.

What is more than obvious in all this is that meat raising and processing in this country is so filled with examples of cruelty to animals and unsound activities that the appropriate trade organizations want any information about their activities to be controlled completely by them.

Anyone who lives in an agricultural state can see the differences just driving by. In West Marin the dairy ranches are largely organic and most have plentiful graze and room to roam. There are some exceptions but more so in the Central Valley where the dairy man relies on feed and the ground is all torn up and often people downwind complain of the smell.

Drive by virtually any feed lot and tell me that is not cruel to the cattle. Check out the coups used for raising turkeys often they are windowless with large fans to exhaust the stench and the heat is that not cruel on its face without having to enter the coup.

The fact that the meat industry feels the need to protect itself so completely tells us a lot, so does what we can see in plain sight.

Thanks for the correction. Technically, a government agent taking a job as an unassuming laborer while his real purpose is to catch someone breaking a law isn't entrapment. None the less, that doesn't change anything I said previously.

Also, my post had nothing at all to do with whether I approve of the way these companies treat their animals and, I made that clear. Like you, I don't know the details of this legislation. However, I don't have to read the details to understand that this law can and will be used in favor of those who wrote, enacted and will enforce it.

I'm not at all opposed to the premise of going undercover to expose unethical business practices. However, those who call themselves government aren't interested in ethics. They're interested in profiting themselves in whatever manner they can, just like unethical business owners are. Thus, if someone in the media or, more apropos, someone from their insurance company wants to do it, I support them completely.


Other than those points, I wholeheartedly agree with you.

The beginning of wisdom is to call things by their right names. - Chinese Proverb
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14-04-2013, 01:23 AM
RE: Can you believe this?!
(13-04-2013 07:17 PM)Hobbitgirl Wrote:  First off I believe the privacy laws between my bathroom and a factory farm are slightly different (At least for now. You know how the states are about destroying constitutional rights)

I'm glad people go in and do sting operations on these companies. I personally want to know what it is I'm eating. Ignorance is not bliss in this area.

Its not so much the information they reveal, but how they go about it. For the police to do something like this they would need probable cause.

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14-04-2013, 01:40 AM
RE: Can you believe this?!
If I'm gonna eat it, I want to know it's been produced in a proper fashion. The fact that these guys are trying to pass laws protecting themselves instead of being transparent and open and saying "sure, come to my farm, have a tour, we can show you how everything works" says a lot.
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14-04-2013, 01:43 AM
RE: Can you believe this?!
(14-04-2013 01:40 AM)morondog Wrote:  If I'm gonna eat it, I want to know it's been produced in a proper fashion. The fact that these guys are trying to pass laws protecting themselves instead of being transparent and open and saying "sure, come to my farm, have a tour, we can show you how everything works" says a lot.

What does that say about the people who can actually pass the laws?

The beginning of wisdom is to call things by their right names. - Chinese Proverb
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