Can you separate a person from their beliefs?
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18-01-2012, 02:26 PM
RE: Can you separate a person from their beliefs?
Good question KC.

I also partially answered this in another thread.But I'll flesh out my opinion on the subject.

Since I think that beliefs are ones own I believe that they are their beliefs. You are currently one and the same.
The reasons we find you easier to deal with than many other theists is because of your beliefs. You've stated that you believe in hate the sin not he sinner. You've also stated that you don't believe in prosletyzing. Both of those things that you believe mean that we can be friends even though we take on different points of view on many other things.
Otherwise many of your other beliefs would make you hate me. Hate me and spend all of your time doing an egor. He didn't share those two points with you.
Whether you believe in god doesn't matter to me because I don't believe it matters. Only because of those other two points I already mentioned. Otherwise it would become an issue as without those two points you would be insufferable and I would find you annoying.
It's a delicate balance between what you believe and what I believe.
I can't look past your beliefs but I can accept them or not. I accept yours because while crazy, they are generally harmless.
I must say though that I believe you've altered some of the cores of your faith to line up more with your actual core beliefs. Which I think all have to do with being a nice guy.
There's nothing wrong with it, as a matter of fact I wish all religious people would do the same.


Let me ask you this. If I were to tell you I believed that aliens had visited earth and were in fact the characters your religion is based around... Would you be able to separate me from my beliefs or would you see my beliefs as indicitive of my actual self?

"I think of myself as an intelligent, sensitive human being with the soul of a clown which always forces me to blow it at the most important moments." -Jim Morrison
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18-01-2012, 02:44 PM
RE: Can you separate a person from their beliefs?
The answer is yes. I've done it to three or four people now. Not anything crazy mind you but things like racism and stuff

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18-01-2012, 03:00 PM
RE: Can you separate a person from their beliefs?
(18-01-2012 11:04 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  The same goes for me and many of you on this board. I believe that I am a Christian by no choice of my own. There are some of you that claim you hate Christianity. In this instance you are like the fundies, because you see theism as a choice. I take the role of the homosexual because I don’t see it as a choice, but rather as who I am. To me, you cannot separate my belief from myself. So, your hate for my belief translates as a hate for me as a person.

I do genuinely despise Christianity. I live in a Christian country and as an atheist am in a definite minority but our variety of Christians are harmless compared to the nutjobs you see elsewhere (in America). Nevertheless, they hold back progress and get involved in government and running other people's lives as much as any other powerful interest group has ever done.

BUT... I can see positives. Further, I don't really blame them - as JackRabbit says, I see them as regrettably but understandably deluded. Why would I hate them? I *do* hate people quite often, but hate like love is a personal thing - I have to know you to hate you, and you have to be a dick to be hated - and my criteria for dickery do not include religion.

So my dislike for your beliefs does not translate to hatred for you as a person... regardless of whether you have a choice in those beliefs or not.
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18-01-2012, 03:05 PM
RE: Can you separate a person from their beliefs?
(18-01-2012 11:04 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  As it usually happens, this question arose from an exchange between Chas and me (yet another reason why I like Chas).

But, can you actually separate a person from their belief if that belief is contrary to your own? Or, is it based on certain vantage points?

Fundies say "hate the sin, not the sinner" when referencing gays and their position towards them. Is this possible, though? Homosexuals know that they are gay by no choice of their own, so they don't see their way of life as wrong. Fundies know that gays have a choice in their sin, so they can separate a person's actions from the person.

However, these beliefs conflict because of each party’s understanding of the situation.

Homosexuals see their hated "sin" as something they cannot control; therefore, deductive reasoning states that fundies hate homosexuals; their sin is them and cannot be separated.

Fundies see this as fairly black and white and can't understand why homosexuals can't separate their actions from them as a person. They see homosexuality in the same way as we view murder, stealing, and adultery. They are actions committed by a person, they are not those actions.

The same goes for me and many of you on this board. I believe that I am a Christian by no choice of my own. There are some of you that claim you hate Christianity. In this instance you are like the fundies, because you see theism as a choice. I take the role of the homosexual because I don’t see it as a choice, but rather as who I am. To me, you cannot separate my belief from myself. So, your hate for my belief translates as a hate for me as a person.

Some of you may be all right with this.

On the other end, there are those who simply disagree with my beliefs, but don’t hate the belief. This is the same with more liberal Christians who do not oppose homosexuality.

I wrote this in hopes that there would be some enlightenment on what you “hate”. Hating anything is an open door for close-mindedness. It’s okay to oppose someone’s belief or way of life, but I feel that “hating” a belief, regardless if you can separate a person from that belief, translates as a personal hate for that person.

I have yet to see a child born Christian without any interference or any knowledge just one day tell me that they suddenly believe in Jesus Christ.

This is the difference between homosexuality being a part of a person, compared to someone being raised a theist. You were born in a Christian home I presume? Then why weren't you born Hindu, Muslim or believed in the flying spaghetti monster? You were never born Christian. You had to become Christian. It is a choice but one indoctrinated so deeply it becomes part of the human.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mmskXXetcg

You were simply taught and raised to be a Christian. You were originally born a blank slate with no knowledge of Gods or supreme beings. You had no idea to believe in anything supernatural. Slowly it was ingrained into your mind that something did exist because people told you so. To pray because people told you so. To be a Christian because people told you so. If this wasn't a choice than I would have remained an idiotic Catholic. I chose to stop remaining blind because I told myself so.

http://epiphenom.fieldofscience.com/2011...-dont.html

Now will I ever hate you? No! You seem friendly and smart so I have no need to think you would burn me at the stake. Will I ever like your belief system? I don't believe I will ever like it again. Do I hate that it is part of you as a person as you say it is? If it brings you happiness than I'm completely fine with it.

"Mankind must put an end to war, or war will put an end to mankind." -John F Kennedy

The way to see by Faith is to shut the eye of Reason.” -Benjamin Franklin

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18-01-2012, 03:41 PM
RE: Can you separate a person from their beliefs?
(18-01-2012 11:04 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  I wrote this in hopes that there would be some enlightenment on what you “hate”. Hating anything is an open door for close-mindedness. It’s okay to oppose someone’s belief or way of life, but I feel that “hating” a belief, regardless if you can separate a person from that belief, translates as a personal hate for that person.

Interesting because even though I've always maintained I was raised without faith, I was brought up with a "belief" of sorts. More like a life rule, really. I was brought up with the notion that the word Hate is something akin to an obscenity and never to be used in direct conjunction with a human being.
A thing can be repugnant and therefore some designated hatred assigned; an action can be damaging and detrimental, so becomes detestable and hated. A person's actions can be reviled and hated, but shouldn't the person's responsibility or reason for that action be the thing to be judged or hated?
A human being has inherent value whereas hate does not. Hate diminishes and degrades value of everything it touches, including the person wielding it.
I don't want to hate a person because I would feel diminished and degraded. That is a want -a desire of and for, my self- I know it to be only an ideal to strive for - an attribute I would wish for others as well. This might be known as my belief.
So logically, I could hate a person, I don't know why or how long it would last, but I could hate someone if they killed my brother -his birthday is today, btw. I would search for the reason behind why they did such a thing, and I'd probably eventually find it… but in the meanwhile, yes; I'd have more hatred than any 10 Christians could ever possibly hope to be repentant of.

Yes, I can separate myself from belief -many people can. I can separate myself from a thing when I reasonably assess it's value… and if the value of separation outweighs the reason to not separate, then hand me a crowbar. In other words; I find it difficult to hate a human, but in truth I could separate from my much desired "belief" and hate. I hope to never run across the need to do so. But it is a possibility.
So, I can separate faith from existence. Of course, I'm not supposed to have faith, so it should be easy, right? How about you… can you separate yourself from the logic you ask others to apply to your faith?

You advise you can not separate your existence from your belief because you don't have a choice; you were born that way. That seems ok, even though that might be viewed as part and parcel of your illusive belief; your personal attribute you would wish for others, as well.

You say your beliefs are hated.
You ask people not to separate you from your belief, because you were born that way.
By that logic you ask people to either hate you… or believe something you believe.

Why would you want me to hate you? I wasn't brought up to hate.
And you know, I'm never gonna believe what you believe; I wasn't born that way. Shy

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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18-01-2012, 04:21 PM
RE: Can you separate a person from their beliefs?
No.

And the solution of hate is to keep it unidentified. Hate, to me, is chop on the sea of Gwynnies that is love. It's still there, but with maximized entropy; when an ill wind blows, the swells rise - powering the rant-o-cannon with chain fed, depleted hatred slugs. Big Grin

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18-01-2012, 05:08 PM
RE: Can you separate a person from their beliefs?
(18-01-2012 11:46 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  LJ, I do believe that I'm Christian by no choice of my own. I believe that this was decided before the "foundations of the world". My belief in my Christianity very much parallels that of homosexuals in that I was born this way and that I have no choice (Ephesians 1).

Hmm... just curious. If you were born in not a Christian family but a Buddhist family, will you reach the same conclusions?

Personally, I view beliefs as a product of nurture, not nature. That may be why many incorporate what they believe into their daily lives like how they incorporate moral values into their daily lives.

If you were taught 1+1=3 throughout your schooling years as a fundamental concept, it may be hard to convince you that 1+1 is indeed 2. Religion, to some, are fundamental to their lives. Tell them the opposite and they reject your notion.

Maybe Orwellian brainwashing works, but who knows?

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18-01-2012, 10:02 PM
RE: Can you separate a person from their beliefs?
(18-01-2012 11:04 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  I wrote this in hopes that there would be some enlightenment on what you “hate”. Hating anything is an open door for close-mindedness. It’s okay to oppose someone’s belief or way of life, but I feel that “hating” a belief, regardless if you can separate a person from that belief, translates as a personal hate for that person.

Agreed. There's no need for hate. Ever.

I don't agree that with your analogy between your belief and the feelings of homosexuals. We don't see anything wrong with them acting on their feelings because it doesn't hurt anyone. But what about alcoholics? Surely they can't help how they feel about alcohol, but we shouldn't passively watch them indulge in it. What about pedophiles? They can't act on their desires without eliciting acts from people too young to understand what they're doing. The main question here is "does your faith hurt anyone?" If not, then be on your merry way and believe what you like (and I think that's true of you, specifically). If your faith does hurt anyone (such as fighting against one's civil freedoms) then you shouldn't be allowed to act on your faith.

I speak from experience, as a person who was a Christian many years ago. Change is hard for everyone, but it's not impossible. Your beliefs are not written in stone. It's not impossible for you to become an atheist. Sure, you may currently feel that God will always be a part of your life, but someday you may not. As long as you stay open-minded, when you get older - no matter whether you're an atheist or a theist - I think that you can look back on your life without regret and truthfully say "I chose my beliefs, knowing full well that I had that choice."

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19-01-2012, 01:17 AM
RE: Can you separate a person from their beliefs?
(18-01-2012 10:02 PM)Starcrash Wrote:  
(18-01-2012 11:04 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  I wrote this in hopes that there would be some enlightenment on what you “hate”. Hating anything is an open door for close-mindedness. It’s okay to oppose someone’s belief or way of life, but I feel that “hating” a belief, regardless if you can separate a person from that belief, translates as a personal hate for that person.

Agreed. There's no need for hate. Ever.

Look at this little love-in going on; get a fucking room. Tongue

Gotta demonstrate hate before illustrating a need for hate. KC makes a statement of moral absolutism beginning with "It's okay," before spinning off into a compound fracture of a sentence. And look at the response. A statement of moral absolutism bracketed by two fragments.

To enhance the fucking moral identity into ethical standard by will. That repetition in both represents a floundering about in an effort to gather emotional appeal. Right now, I got problem with hating this pair or being hated by anyone. Hate just doesn't have staying power.

Know what does have staying power? Can you guess? Faith. In real-world terms, it is almost certain me and KC would get along; and that half of this board would find me intolerable.

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20-01-2012, 09:52 AM
 
RE: Can you separate a person from their beliefs?
I HATE Hypocrisy, not Christians.
I hate INTOLERANCE, not Christians
I don't hate Christians, even though i think that once you pull back the layer of the 'loving god' delusion, i see them as (as i once was) of two minds and always looking for ways to solve an insolvable situation.

I DON'T hate god or Jesus or xenu or Zeus or Mithra or rodan or Godzilla or peter pan or the tooth fairy. Its impossible to hate something that you don't believe exists.

I HATE the teachers Dogmatic approaches in my Southern Baptist upbringing.
The same teachers were just cult leaders at best, they were a product of their teachers and the teachers before them.

I LOVE the TRUTH and the clarity it brings.
I LOATHE stupidity, not ignorance. Ignorance is not knowing better. Stupidity is knowing better but continuing to keep doing it.

We all know that 1+1+1=3, but a Christian will fight till the end to somehow make the Trinity Math make sense. Thats pure insanity to me. Just because you believe in aliens does not mean the rest of us will...nor will it stop the rest of us from thinking that you are nuts.

I HATE the logic that the bible is a good book. Its not. It holds very little moral and ethical guidance for the human race. The bible has become this 'socially accepted' book of good things for those that have never read it. They just think "If its good, it must be in there cuz i have been told so". The bible is quite anti family, anti woman and anti civilized behavior. Truth be told, it seemed that god was EAGER to fill up the pits of hell...in a hurry!

Can i separate Faith from Person...to a degree. But if they start wanting things like prayer in schools and 10 commandments in public places, then their agenda walks all over my freedom. When that person insists on debating and being right (never really fairly debating)..then i cant separate the insanity of the faith. Deep down i tell myself that this person believes in the craziest of things and is hard to really take seriously.

D
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