Can you show this proof of God's existence to be wrong?
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07-11-2013, 10:38 PM
RE: Can you show this proof of God's existence to be wrong?
(07-11-2013 10:30 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  But just because his argument contains logical fallacies doesn't mean his conclusion was false.

What it does mean is that he hasn't proved his conclusion.

And that was Free's point.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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07-11-2013, 10:47 PM
RE: Can you show this proof of God's existence to be wrong?
(07-11-2013 10:21 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(07-11-2013 10:00 PM)Monster_Riffs Wrote:  The way I see it, even IF he were correct through every stage of his reasoning right to the very end, what he has done is pose a question. He then goes one unnecessary step further and posits god as the answer.

Except it's not unnecessary to him.
"That fact requires an active explanation."

He *must* have an answer, NOW, TODAY, or he can't sleep.
With no other answer available to him, he MUST plug in his god of the gaps.
It's about psychology. Not about physics, theology, logic, or philosophy.
(It also demonstrates that what religion is, for him, is not about a "relationship" with his deity).

Agreed. As you clearly picked up on. I meant unnecessary for the rest of us Smile

A man blames his bad childhood on leprechauns. He claims they don't exist, but yet still says without a doubt that they stole all his money and then killed his parents. That's why he became Leprechaun-Man

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07-11-2013, 10:48 PM
RE: Can you show this proof of God's existence to be wrong?
STupid but may help some people get over weird hangups.

summary:
Shit happened and there are rules and laws in place that no one knows the origin of, so lets give it a name to that just so happens to be the same name of a
certain insane mindfuk mythological figure used to enslave peoples thoughts and actions.

Stuff we don't know = Stuff we don't know
is does not = "well I have too much EGO to say I don't know. so let say GOD did it instead"

Theism is to believe what other people claim, Atheism is to ask "why should I".
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07-11-2013, 10:56 PM
RE: Can you show this proof of God's existence to be wrong?
(07-11-2013 10:30 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  He's actually a very smart person who holds and argues quit well a view contrary to yours. You shouldn't just dismiss him as this is the kind of guy you want to mentally exercise with. It is true his "proof" of God's existence was hardly that because it is fatally flawed. But just because his argument contains logical fallacies doesn't mean his conclusion was false.

If the the argument is flawed, then the conclusion doesn't follow. You're saying anything that is asserted, with no logical argument is (just as) valid. Why not just write a creed then ? He's a VERY Catholic Thomist. He needs to join the 21st Century.

(07-11-2013 10:30 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  One of his assumptions is that there exists something which conserves the laws of nature and also conserves itself. I don't have a problem with accepting this assumption as intuitively true. The question is can you credibly call this thing God? In my discussion with him he said you can because:
A) This thing maintains everything else in operation.
B) This thing creates via the laws of nature.
C) This thing rules( the laws of nature are laws after all).

You can just as easily says it's the "structure of this universe" that does this.
He has no answer why that is, and REQUIRES a further explanation.
Since he's got no better one, he takes god out of his back pocket, and plugs it in.

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Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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07-11-2013, 11:04 PM
RE: Can you show this proof of God's existence to be wrong?
(07-11-2013 10:38 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(07-11-2013 10:30 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  But just because his argument contains logical fallacies doesn't mean his conclusion was false.

What it does mean is that he hasn't proved his conclusion.

And that was Free's point.


Well Free said he should be dismissed and that is what I disagree with. I agree Polis hadn't proved his conclusion. I told Polis that and pointed out that his conclusion was one of his assumptions(he didn't accept my criticism though). Good thinkers make logical fallacies all the time and just because they do isn't enough cause to dismiss them entirely

It is one thing to dismiss one argument a man makes and quite another to dismiss everything that man says.
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07-11-2013, 11:10 PM
RE: Can you show this proof of God's existence to be wrong?
(07-11-2013 10:56 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  You can just as easily says it's the "structure of this universe" that does this.
He has no answer why that is, and REQUIRES a further explanation.
Since he's got no better one, he takes god out of his back pocket, and plugs it in.

It doesn't matter much if you call God...God or if you call God....the structure of the universe. You are talking about the same thing.
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07-11-2013, 11:19 PM
RE: Can you show this proof of God's existence to be wrong?
(07-11-2013 11:10 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(07-11-2013 10:56 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  You can just as easily says it's the "structure of this universe" that does this.
He has no answer why that is, and REQUIRES a further explanation.
Since he's got no better one, he takes god out of his back pocket, and plugs it in.

It doesn't matter much if you call God...God or if you call God....the structure of the universe. You are talking about the same thing.

It sort of does because of the popular definition of the term GOD equals an insane jealous egotistical lunatic, hell bent on suffering and slavery.
To associate that with a magical unexplained mystery like the origins of existence, is just madness.

Theism is to believe what other people claim, Atheism is to ask "why should I".
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07-11-2013, 11:24 PM
RE: Can you show this proof of God's existence to be wrong?
(07-11-2013 11:10 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(07-11-2013 10:56 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  You can just as easily says it's the "structure of this universe" that does this.
He has no answer why that is, and REQUIRES a further explanation.
Since he's got no better one, he takes god out of his back pocket, and plugs it in.

It doesn't matter much if you call God...God or if you call God....the structure of the universe. You are talking about the same thing.

You can't possibly be serious.
You don't get to tell anyone what they're talking about.
Is the structure of the universe an "eternal living being" that created itself at the big bang ?
Weeping

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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07-11-2013, 11:34 PM
RE: Can you show this proof of God's existence to be wrong?
(07-11-2013 11:24 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(07-11-2013 11:10 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  It doesn't matter much if you call God...God or if you call God....the structure of the universe. You are talking about the same thing.

You can't possibly be serious.
You don't get to tell anyone what they're talking about.
Is the structure of the universe an "eternal living being" that created itself at the big bang ?
Weeping

There is no evidence that the universe was created at the big bang. Big Bang theory only says the universe was hotter and more dense in the past then it is today. It says nothing about a "bang".

Also I don't consider God distinct from reality. I don't think Polis would either.
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07-11-2013, 11:39 PM
RE: Can you show this proof of God's existence to be wrong?
Basically he picks up a rock and claims it proves "god." The rest of it is rather pointless jargon.

He's one step away from Dr. Dino.

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