Catalonia Referendum.
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27-09-2017, 04:13 AM
RE: Catalonia Referendum.
This referendum has little to do with nationalism. Only 23,8% of the people voting "yes" say it's a matter of identity to them.

As abaris said, it is indeed a wealthy region in a poor country. They pay more taxes than they get back from the central government compared to the other regions in Spain.
The political parties that get the most support in Spain are hardly supported in Catalonia.

They are similar to Spain, yes, but different enough (culturally, politically, economically) to be independent. The region has so much potential that is being wasted only because of their being a part of Spain.

Also, Dr H, the EU was an attempt to try and make borders obsolete in a sense. Now it's dying. It didn't work. And it didn't do us (Greeks and Spaniards alike) any good.

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27-09-2017, 06:13 AM
RE: Catalonia Referendum.
I am a descendant of Catalans. My paternal grandfather was born in Barcelona and my father has always been proud to say he has Cataluñan blood running through his veins. Funny, now that I think of it, how the two had and have always said they are Catalan and not Spanish. Consider

It would appear that identity is a big part to some.

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27-09-2017, 03:23 PM
RE: Catalonia Referendum.
(26-09-2017 11:02 PM)morondog Wrote:  If you advocate for anarchy, answer me this: how will you prevent the next warlord from fucking you over in your happy anarchistic no state world? There's no law to appeal to. No standing army. Literally all it would take is someone saying "fuck this, I'm making an army" and they're instantly a dictator/king in their area of influence.
A large scale anarchist society would require that humanity be, on average, much better educated, and perhaps more evolved. A much smaller global population would help, too.

That said, there's no reason why there can't be smaller societal units that are essentially anarchistic. Society would, in fact, function much as it does now -- by social contract. The main difference would be that you wouldn't have a government telling you which social contracts you had to make and which ones you weren't allowed to make. With an equitable division of resources there would be no reason for someone to become a "warlord". Why would you need tor raise an army to take what you already have?

And if somebody does decide to fuck with the society, it is up to the society to take responsibility and respond appropriately. Anarchy demands a lot of personal and social responsibility, and any society the abdicates its responsibility runs the risk of going the way of the dodo, for sure. That's how evolution works.

Quote:Saying that we should all learn to treat each other better - so what? We're not ALL going to magically turn into not-arseholes. And all the hippies will soon be conquered and enslaved by the more practical minded. They'll damn well deserve it. Terminal stupidity would be a crime in my anarchist-enabled dictatorship.
<shrug> If you have the support of the people. If you don't, well, take a look at that white supremacist that got the shit kicked out of him at Berkeley by a bunch of Antifa anarchists. People are capable of policing themselves if the motivation is strong enough.

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27-09-2017, 03:28 PM
RE: Catalonia Referendum.
(27-09-2017 04:13 AM)undergroundp Wrote:  Also, Dr H, the EU was an attempt to try and make borders obsolete in a sense. Now it's dying. It didn't work. And it didn't do us (Greeks and Spaniards alike) any good.

Not even close. It was an attempt to convince people that the borders didn't matter, but those running the show had their own ulterior motives for this, as they always do. There's more to it that just erasing the lines on the map. The EU maintained a corrupt monetary system based on essentially a capitalist economic philosophy. Just throwing open all the cages at the zoo doesn't really liberate the animals if they have to keep coming back every day at feeding time.

(Not that I'm calling Europeans 'animals', mind you; that Orwellian image from 'Animal Farm' just popped into my head.)

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27-09-2017, 06:42 PM
RE: Catalonia Referendum.
(23-09-2017 12:28 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  
(22-09-2017 11:53 PM)Minimalist Wrote:  I don't think tribalism is the way to go.

Tell that to the middle eastern or African countries that got fucked over because some western power decided where to draw a line on a map.

I would have thought Spain was a bit beyond that point. Perhaps I'm wrong but it seems they want to go backwards.

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28-09-2017, 12:09 AM
RE: Catalonia Referendum.
(27-09-2017 03:23 PM)Dr H Wrote:  
(26-09-2017 11:02 PM)morondog Wrote:  If you advocate for anarchy, answer me this: how will you prevent the next warlord from fucking you over in your happy anarchistic no state world? There's no law to appeal to. No standing army. Literally all it would take is someone saying "fuck this, I'm making an army" and they're instantly a dictator/king in their area of influence.
A large scale anarchist society would require that humanity be, on average, much better educated, and perhaps more evolved. A much smaller global population would help, too.

That said, there's no reason why there can't be smaller societal units that are essentially anarchistic. Society would, in fact, function much as it does now -- by social contract. The main difference would be that you wouldn't have a government telling you which social contracts you had to make and which ones you weren't allowed to make. With an equitable division of resources there would be no reason for someone to become a "warlord". Why would you need tor raise an army to take what you already have?

And if somebody does decide to fuck with the society, it is up to the society to take responsibility and respond appropriately. Anarchy demands a lot of personal and social responsibility, and any society the abdicates its responsibility runs the risk of going the way of the dodo, for sure. That's how evolution works.

Quote:Saying that we should all learn to treat each other better - so what? We're not ALL going to magically turn into not-arseholes. And all the hippies will soon be conquered and enslaved by the more practical minded. They'll damn well deserve it. Terminal stupidity would be a crime in my anarchist-enabled dictatorship.
<shrug> If you have the support of the people. If you don't, well, take a look at that white supremacist that got the shit kicked out of him at Berkeley by a bunch of Antifa anarchists. People are capable of policing themselves if the motivation is strong enough.

Which dictator has the support of the people? Rule by fear is an effective thing. In any case, government is not bad. I don't WANT to have to think about a lot of the things they take my personal responsibility away for. How will you prevent people from polluting, in anarchy land? Where is the incentive for people to cooperate? How will you carry out public health programmes? How will justice work? You're living in fairyland Dodgy Just because a bunch of black-clad clowns beat up a Neo-Nazi that gives you hope for the future?

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28-09-2017, 12:13 AM
RE: Catalonia Referendum.
(27-09-2017 06:42 PM)Minimalist Wrote:  
(23-09-2017 12:28 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  Tell that to the middle eastern or African countries that got fucked over because some western power decided where to draw a line on a map.

I would have thought Spain was a bit beyond that point. Perhaps I'm wrong but it seems they want to go backwards.

How is it going backwards?
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28-09-2017, 04:09 AM
RE: Catalonia Referendum.
(27-09-2017 03:28 PM)Dr H Wrote:  
(27-09-2017 04:13 AM)undergroundp Wrote:  Also, Dr H, the EU was an attempt to try and make borders obsolete in a sense. Now it's dying. It didn't work. And it didn't do us (Greeks and Spaniards alike) any good.

Not even close. It was an attempt to convince people that the borders didn't matter, but those running the show had their own ulterior motives for this, as they always do. There's more to it that just erasing the lines on the map. The EU maintained a corrupt monetary system based on essentially a capitalist economic philosophy. Just throwing open all the cages at the zoo doesn't really liberate the animals if they have to keep coming back every day at feeding time.

(Not that I'm calling Europeans 'animals', mind you; that Orwellian image from 'Animal Farm' just popped into my head.)

Well, I wasn't trying to equate the EU with anarchism, obviously. Yes, who wouldn't want to live in a perfect, anarchist world? But we're very, very far from any kind of realization of such an idea. In this world, in this Europe, more borders can sometimes be good is all I'm saying.

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28-09-2017, 10:08 AM
RE: Catalonia Referendum.
(27-09-2017 03:28 PM)Dr H Wrote:  Not even close. It was an attempt to convince people that the borders didn't matter, but those running the show had their own ulterior motives for this, as they always do.

That's bull. At the roots of the EU stand De Gaule and Adenauer. Not even two decades after the last war both countries fought against each other. After centuries of war they decided on a peaceful project of cooperation.

That, in it's long history, things have changed for the worse in certain instances doesn't discredit the project. A peaceful Europe working together. At it's core there are still the four liberties and the human rights declaration.

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28-09-2017, 08:16 PM
RE: Catalonia Referendum.
(28-09-2017 12:09 AM)morondog Wrote:  Which dictator has the support of the people?
Well golly gee, they pretty much all claim to.

But then so does Donald Trump.

Quote:Rule by fear is an effective thing.
If people allow themselves to be ruled, they will be ruled whether they fear their ruler or not.

Quote:In any case, government is not bad. I don't WANT to have to think about a lot of the things they take my personal responsibility away for.
If you don't mind surrendering your freedom, I suppose. Being free and being lazy are kind of antithetical to each other.

Quote:How will you prevent people from polluting, in anarchy land? Where is the incentive for people to cooperate?
What's the incentive for not shitting in your own nest?

Quote:How will you carry out public health programmes?
Do you imagine that if there were no government, no one would ever want to study medicine or be a doctor?

Quote:How will justice work?
How does it work now? Let's see: if you're wealthy and white, the cops look the other way or you get a slap on the wrist; if you're poor and/or black, they shoot you.

Yeah, I guess it's hard to imagine that it could get better than that.

Quote:You're living in fairyland Dodgy
Actually, no. I'm living in an entrenched plutocracy organized along lines of white privilege sustained by institutionalized racism and growing overtones of theocracy.

Quote:Just because a bunch of black-clad clowns beat up a Neo-Nazi that gives you hope for the future?
LOL. So you imagine that I just suddenly became anarchist this past August 27th after watching a 30 second Youtube video?

Nah, been studying it for a long time. I have to be true to myself, and I don't believe that some guy I never met, don't know, and didn't even vote for should be running my life any more than somebody's invisible sky daddy. Religion is passe, and government is just religion in drag.

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