Catalonia Referendum.
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28-09-2017, 08:18 PM
RE: Catalonia Referendum.
(28-09-2017 04:09 AM)undergroundp Wrote:  Well, I wasn't trying to equate the EU with anarchism, obviously. Yes, who wouldn't want to live in a perfect, anarchist world? But we're very, very far from any kind of realization of such an idea. In this world, in this Europe, more borders can sometimes be good is all I'm saying.

Why "perfect"?

If we wait for something new to become "perfect" before we're willing to try it, would we ever go anywhere?

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"So, I became an anarchist, and all I got was this lousy T-shirt."
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28-09-2017, 08:23 PM
RE: Catalonia Referendum.
(28-09-2017 10:08 AM)abaris Wrote:  That's bull. At the roots of the EU stand De Gaule and Adenauer.

Never heard of either of those countries. Oh wait... they're people. Right.


Quote:Not even two decades after the last war both countries fought against each other. After centuries of war they decided on a peaceful project of cooperation.

That, in it's long history, things have changed for the worse in certain instances doesn't discredit the project. A peaceful Europe working together.

And Mr. Europe is ...?

Oh, right, "Europe" isn't a person, it's an abstract collection of countries.
So we have two people telling a whole bunch of countries, and all the people in them, what's best for them.

The few guiding the many.
Religion has it; government has it.

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28-09-2017, 09:21 PM
RE: Catalonia Referendum.
(28-09-2017 12:09 AM)morondog Wrote:  Which dictator has the support of the people?


Hitler and Stalin had support of people even if it was built partly on propaganda and fear. However support from all populace isn't required, indifference is enough.

Quote: Rule by fear is an effective thing.


Even in SU during Great Terror state didn't run only on fear. Fear may be effective but one can't sit on throne of bayonets - some dose of enthusiasm is needed and totalitarian rulers know this.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

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28-09-2017, 11:43 PM
RE: Catalonia Referendum.
(28-09-2017 08:16 PM)Dr H Wrote:  
(28-09-2017 12:09 AM)morondog Wrote:  Which dictator has the support of the people?
Well golly gee, they pretty much all claim to.

But then so does Donald Trump.

Quote:Rule by fear is an effective thing.
If people allow themselves to be ruled, they will be ruled whether they fear their ruler or not.
Thanks, I take it that you're criticizing everyone who does live under a corrupt government for not doing anything about it. Get back to me when you're ready to lead the revolution against Trump.

Quote:
Quote:In any case, government is not bad. I don't WANT to have to think about a lot of the things they take my personal responsibility away for.
If you don't mind surrendering your freedom, I suppose. Being free and being lazy are kind of antithetical to each other.
Oh fuck off. What I'm saying is this: some aspects of government require careful thought, planning and implementation. Without specialists to do that, *I* would have to be involved in such things. In an anarchy, they just wouldn't get done, regardless of your rose-coloured views. Also, I can work hard as of right now *in my specialized field* wwithout having to be some kind of MacGuyver to compensate for the lack of things the government provides me. You're welcome to masturbate to anarchist fantasies, but recognise that your anarchy that you dream of will have severe limitations, which is why no one currently lives in an anarchy (except maybe Somalia, and if you want to copy that model you're possibly in need of medical attention).

Quote:
Quote:How will you prevent people from polluting, in anarchy land? Where is the incentive for people to cooperate?
What's the incentive for not shitting in your own nest?
Are you kidding? Mining companies, plastics companies, *all* would love to pollute without restriction. They get to keep the profits and the world pays the damages. Don't be a fucking tool. It's not like they'd magically grow a set of ethics.

Quote:
Quote:How will you carry out public health programmes?
Do you imagine that if there were no government, no one would ever want to study medicine or be a doctor?
Do you imagine that free health care for all will somehow spring out of the goodness of people's hearts? The whole point is that large-scale society-wide organised efforts are hard and require organisation.

Quote:
Quote:How will justice work?
How does it work now? Let's see: if you're wealthy and white, the cops look the other way or you get a slap on the wrist; if you're poor and/or black, they shoot you.

Yeah, I guess it's hard to imagine that it could get better than that.
Improve it by replacing it with... NOTHING??? Come on. If you're proposing a change of government system, at least have the balls to propose actual policy and not just spout vague platitudes.

Quote:Nah, been studying it for a long time. I have to be true to myself, and I don't believe that some guy I never met, don't know, and didn't even vote for should be running my life any more than somebody's invisible sky daddy. Religion is passe, and government is just religion in drag.
Bully for you. Propose a better system. Actually propose it. Don't just whine about the system you do have.

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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29-09-2017, 02:14 AM
RE: Catalonia Referendum.
Oh bonus question: what do you want to do to be "free" that you cannot do now? Not pay taxes?

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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29-09-2017, 03:33 AM
EU provides support to Catalan separatists
All of Spain is following with concern the current developments in Catalonia. Instead of entering into constructive dialogue with the Spanish government and reaching a compromise on the issue of major importance to the entire country, the Catalan regional government not only continues to prepare for illegal referendum on Catalan independence, totally ignoring the decision of the Spanish Constitutional Court, but also strives energetically to find new supporters and allies outside Spain. It has become known that the government of Carles Puigdemont has been able to obtain assistance from the European Union. The Spanish State Secretary for Territorial Administrations Roberto Bermúdez de Castro has informed on it in his letter to the Vice President of the Spanish Government Soraya Sáenz de Santamaría, '... according to our representatives in the European Parliament, the EU leaders pledge their cooperation to heads of the Catalan regional government and make promises to recognize the legitimacy of the referendum'.

[Image: 4961666doc.jpg]

It turns out that European politicians not only fail to condemn the anti-constitutional actions of Catalan separatists, but are even ready to promote the speedy entry of already independent Catalonia into the European Union. "... the European authorities will not hinder this process even if the Spanish government does not recognize the legitimacy of the referendum results". By supporting the plebiscite that is found to be constitutionally prohibited, the European leaders are showing complete disrespect for Spanish legislation and decisions taken by the government of Mariano Rajoy that makes every effort to preserve the territorial integrity of Spain. Roberto Bermúdez de Castro has also mentioned it in his letter, 'On the basis of what has been set forth above, it may be concluded that the EU leaders do not give due consideration to the view of official government of Spain that is one of the key members of the Union'.

It is important to note that following Catalonia, other autonomies, and first of all, the Basque Country, may also express and achieve their right to self-determination. Catalonia's independence from Spain will start the irreversible process of dissolution of Spain. Moreover, the EU authorities' shortsightedness may lead to the increase in activity of separatist movements all over Europe. The example of Catalonia will inspire separatists of other European countries with similar problems, including Italy, Belgium, and Denmark. 'European politicians must be reminded that Catalonia's secession from Spain creates a dangerous precedent and threatens the integrity of other European States where separatist sentiments exist'. Thus, providing support to independence advocates, European politicians contribute to territorial and political changes in Europe, which will no doubt weaken the European Union itself.
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29-09-2017, 07:50 AM
RE: Catalonia Referendum.
(29-09-2017 03:33 AM)samalonso Wrote:  All of Spain is following with concern the current developments in Catalonia. Instead of entering into constructive dialogue with the Spanish government and reaching a compromise on the issue of major importance to the entire country, the Catalan regional government not only continues to prepare for illegal referendum on Catalan independence, totally ignoring the decision of the Spanish Constitutional Court, but also strives energetically to find new supporters and allies outside Spain. It has become known that the government of Carles Puigdemont has been able to obtain assistance from the European Union. The Spanish State Secretary for Territorial Administrations Roberto Bermúdez de Castro has informed on it in his letter to the Vice President of the Spanish Government Soraya Sáenz de Santamaría, '... according to our representatives in the European Parliament, the EU leaders pledge their cooperation to heads of the Catalan regional government and make promises to recognize the legitimacy of the referendum'.

[Image: 4961666doc.jpg]

It turns out that European politicians not only fail to condemn the anti-constitutional actions of Catalan separatists, but are even ready to promote the speedy entry of already independent Catalonia into the European Union. "... the European authorities will not hinder this process even if the Spanish government does not recognize the legitimacy of the referendum results". By supporting the plebiscite that is found to be constitutionally prohibited, the European leaders are showing complete disrespect for Spanish legislation and decisions taken by the government of Mariano Rajoy that makes every effort to preserve the territorial integrity of Spain. Roberto Bermúdez de Castro has also mentioned it in his letter, 'On the basis of what has been set forth above, it may be concluded that the EU leaders do not give due consideration to the view of official government of Spain that is one of the key members of the Union'.

It is important to note that following Catalonia, other autonomies, and first of all, the Basque Country, may also express and achieve their right to self-determination. Catalonia's independence from Spain will start the irreversible process of dissolution of Spain. Moreover, the EU authorities' shortsightedness may lead to the increase in activity of separatist movements all over Europe. The example of Catalonia will inspire separatists of other European countries with similar problems, including Italy, Belgium, and Denmark. 'European politicians must be reminded that Catalonia's secession from Spain creates a dangerous precedent and threatens the integrity of other European States where separatist sentiments exist'. Thus, providing support to independence advocates, European politicians contribute to territorial and political changes in Europe, which will no doubt weaken the European Union itself.

I sure would like the US west coast to become independent. Hence I find it hard to complain about Catalonia.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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29-09-2017, 05:39 PM
RE: Catalonia Referendum.
(28-09-2017 11:43 PM)morondog Wrote:  Thanks, I take it that you're criticizing everyone who does live under a corrupt government for not doing anything about it.
"Corrupt government" is redundant.

Quote: Get back to me when you're ready to lead the revolution against Trump.
It's been going on since he was elected.

Quote:Oh fuck off.
Certainly. After you. Yes

Quote:What I'm saying is this: some aspects of government require careful thought, planning and implementation.
True. Pity they so seldom get it.

Quote:Without specialists to do that, *I* would have to be involved in such things.
Now that's just silly. You're saying you need specialists in government to conduct government business.
Get rid of the government, and you get rid of the need for the specialists needed to run it.

Quote:In an anarchy, they just wouldn't get done, regardless of your rose-coloured views.
And you know this . . . how?

Quote:Also, I can work hard as of right now *in my specialized field* wwithout having to be some kind of MacGuyver to compensate for the lack of things the government provides me. You're welcome to masturbate to anarchist fantasies, but recognise that your anarchy that you dream of will have severe limitations, which is why no one currently lives in an anarchy (except maybe Somalia, and if you want to copy that model you're possibly in need of medical attention).
<shrug> thanks for the permission.
And you are welcome to trade the lies, bullshit, and oppression of religion for those of statism, if that floats your boat. Seems odd to me, but they do say that it takes all kinds.

Quote:Are you kidding? Mining companies, plastics companies, *all* would love to pollute without restriction. They get to keep the profits and the world pays the damages. Don't be a fucking tool. It's not like they'd magically grow a set of ethics.
What ever "companies" there were in anarchy society would be owned and operated by the workers. Sure, they might be so short-sighted as to pollute their own community and endanger their own families -- in which case they would eventually eliminate themselves from the equation.

Quote:Do you imagine that free health care for all will somehow spring out of the goodness of people's hearts? The whole point is that large-scale society-wide organised efforts are hard and require organisation.
So, have smaller societies.

Quote:Improve it by replacing it with... NOTHING???
OK, I see what the problem is here. You have no idea whatsoever about what anarchy is.

That can be remedied. I'd suggest starting here.


Quote:Bully for you. Propose a better system. Actually propose it. Don't just whine about the system you do have.
Social anarchism, driven by enlightened self-interest and social contract.

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29-09-2017, 05:41 PM
RE: Catalonia Referendum.
(29-09-2017 02:14 AM)morondog Wrote:  Oh bonus question: what do you want to do to be "free" that you cannot do now?

Whatever it takes.
But I think maybe you didn't ask the question you meant to ask.

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29-09-2017, 05:45 PM
RE: Catalonia Referendum.
(29-09-2017 03:33 AM)samalonso Wrote:  It turns out that European politicians not only fail to condemn the anti-constitutional actions of Catalan separatists,

Why, one wonders, should it be illegal or unconstitutional merely to hold a vote on something? Hell, where I live I could hold a referendum on whether chocolate or vanilla ice cream should be more heavily advertised in urban areas, if I wanted to put the time, money, and effort into setting it up.

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