Catholic Apologists Blame Paedophilia Scandals on Gays?
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19-05-2015, 09:01 PM
RE: Catholic Apologists Blame Paedophilia Scandals on Gays?
The homosexual basis for the paedophilia scandal is quite old and I thought it had been covered in The forum several times. In any case it's basis lies in the fact that the majority of cases in the US of child abuse occured in same sex situations. Also after Vatican II a fairly significant portion of the priestly population comprised of Homosexuals. Two reasons for this are that it gave homosexuals a place to hide their orientation also many homosexuals would have come to the conclusion that they were not called to married life and so they joined the priesthood. Another factor is that apparently their existed a fairly strong gay lobby in the higher up of the Vatican. While not necessarily connected it is not exactly hard to imagine how someone could come to that conclusion.
I don't particularly agree with that concept although it may have been a factor to some degree, I tend to think that the main causes of the scandal rested with a lot of priests joining the priesthood with the expectation that Vatican II was going to change things such as married priests also there were very lax screenings of applicants to the seminary. This led to a lot of people becoming priests who shouldn't have become priests. As well as much as I admire the man I also leave a fair amount of blame at the feet of John Paul II. I think that, because of the false trials against priests in communist Poland and Russia, he refused to believe the allegations against the priests. The final cause I place behind the scandal is that it is easy to decry someone when you are far removed from someone, it is less so when the person is familiar to you. People often turn a blind eye to their friends faults and will tend to side with their friend if they deny the allegations.
I prefer to avoid placing the blame on the scandal on any singular cause and think that it was a fairly complex situation.
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19-05-2015, 09:07 PM
RE: Catholic Apologists Blame Paedophilia Scandals on Gays?
Even leaving aside the "blame the gays" side of the pedophilia scandal... and we really shouldn't... the Catholic Church has a huge problem admitting to ANY mistake. It took them three and a half centuries to apologize for Galileo. Their tacit support of Nazi Germany, and their subsequent establishing of ratlines, are things they never mention. Admitting wrong-doing, much less engaging in soul-searching and having the humility to admit even the possibility of moral error, is something that church is virtually incapable of.

So yeah, of COURSE they're going to bear false witness against one of Christianity's favorite scapegoats.

From now on, whenever someone cites the Catholic church.... and, a lot of other churches... as a source of moral guidance, I'm going to laugh. Literally respond to the claim with peals of derisive laughter. It deserves no less... and no more.Laughat
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19-05-2015, 09:10 PM
RE: Catholic Apologists Blame Paedophilia Scandals on Gays?
There was a dumbfuck on AF yesterday who was calling the priestly predation upon choirboys a matter of homosexuality ... obviously trying to ignore the injunction Jesus laid down that "by the fruit shall ye know the tree."
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19-05-2015, 10:20 PM
RE: Catholic Apologists Blame Paedophilia Scandals on Gays?
(19-05-2015 09:01 PM)TarzanSmith Wrote:  The homosexual basis for the paedophilia scandal is quite old and I thought it had been covered in The forum several times. In any case it's basis lies in the fact that the majority of cases in the US of child abuse occured in same sex situations. Also after Vatican II a fairly significant portion of the priestly population comprised of Homosexuals. Two reasons for this are that it gave homosexuals a place to hide their orientation also many homosexuals would have come to the conclusion that they were not called to married life and so they joined the priesthood. Another factor is that apparently their existed a fairly strong gay lobby in the higher up of the Vatican. While not necessarily connected it is not exactly hard to imagine how someone could come to that conclusion.
I don't particularly agree with that concept although it may have been a factor to some degree, I tend to think that the main causes of the scandal rested with a lot of priests joining the priesthood with the expectation that Vatican II was going to change things such as married priests also there were very lax screenings of applicants to the seminary. This led to a lot of people becoming priests who shouldn't have become priests. As well as much as I admire the man I also leave a fair amount of blame at the feet of John Paul II. I think that, because of the false trials against priests in communist Poland and Russia, he refused to believe the allegations against the priests. The final cause I place behind the scandal is that it is easy to decry someone when you are far removed from someone, it is less so when the person is familiar to you. People often turn a blind eye to their friends faults and will tend to side with their friend if they deny the allegations.
I prefer to avoid placing the blame on the scandal on any singular cause and think that it was a fairly complex situation.

Sorry if it's been covered here many times before, I'm still very new to this forum Big Grin

And thanks for the info, I had never read about that before about John Paul II, though it makes sense that he refused to believe the allegations after false trials against priests, as you say.

Thanks for giving me a little historical background on the situation. Smile

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19-05-2015, 10:24 PM
RE: Catholic Apologists Blame Paedophilia Scandals on Gays?
(19-05-2015 09:10 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  There was a dumbfuck on AF yesterday who was calling the priestly predation upon choirboys a matter of homosexuality ... obviously trying to ignore the injunction Jesus laid down that "by the fruit shall ye know the tree."

That thread is actually where I first heard it. I was browsing through the replies on the AF thread and my jaw hit the floor when I read his reply, so I did so more research on it. Turns out it's nothing new. Sad

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19-05-2015, 10:54 PM
RE: Catholic Apologists Blame Paedophilia Scandals on Gays?
(19-05-2015 10:20 PM)Helen_Damnation Wrote:  
(19-05-2015 09:01 PM)TarzanSmith Wrote:  The homosexual basis for the paedophilia scandal is quite old and I thought it had been covered in The forum several times. In any case it's basis lies in the fact that the majority of cases in the US of child abuse occured in same sex situations. Also after Vatican II a fairly significant portion of the priestly population comprised of Homosexuals. Two reasons for this are that it gave homosexuals a place to hide their orientation also many homosexuals would have come to the conclusion that they were not called to married life and so they joined the priesthood. Another factor is that apparently their existed a fairly strong gay lobby in the higher up of the Vatican. While not necessarily connected it is not exactly hard to imagine how someone could come to that conclusion.
I don't particularly agree with that concept although it may have been a factor to some degree, I tend to think that the main causes of the scandal rested with a lot of priests joining the priesthood with the expectation that Vatican II was going to change things such as married priests also there were very lax screenings of applicants to the seminary. This led to a lot of people becoming priests who shouldn't have become priests. As well as much as I admire the man I also leave a fair amount of blame at the feet of John Paul II. I think that, because of the false trials against priests in communist Poland and Russia, he refused to believe the allegations against the priests. The final cause I place behind the scandal is that it is easy to decry someone when you are far removed from someone, it is less so when the person is familiar to you. People often turn a blind eye to their friends faults and will tend to side with their friend if they deny the allegations.
I prefer to avoid placing the blame on the scandal on any singular cause and think that it was a fairly complex situation.

Sorry if it's been covered here many times before, I'm still very new to this forum Big Grin

And thanks for the info, I had never read about that before about John Paul II, though it makes sense that he refused to believe the allegations after false trials against priests, as you say.

Thanks for giving me a little historical background on the situation. Smile

The Nazis also did it extensively. Although it was done mostly after the church pulled their support of Hitler in the Encyclical MIT Brennender Sorge. I think I big effect from this was that it shifted many priests and bishops view regarding proving that those accused were guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. I think what they considered reasonable evidence was far beyond what should have been required. In any case the entire scandal was a clusterfuck.

Ps. I think that last word may have been a poor choice.

I'm homophobic in the same way that I'm arachnophobic. I'm not scared of gay people but I'm going to scream if I find one in my bath.

I'm. Also homophobic in the same way I'm arachnophobic. I'm scared of spiders but I'd still fuck'em.
- my friend Marc
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20-05-2015, 02:35 AM
RE: Catholic Apologists Blame Paedophilia Scandals on Gays?
(19-05-2015 05:40 PM)Helen_Damnation Wrote:  Recently I've come across this Catholic talking point in which blame for their paedophile preist scandals is placed on homosexuality.

I don't know if this has been around for a while, but it's new to me, and especially infuriating.

This is an organization that fights against MY civil rights, then some Catholic apologists turn around and blame ME for the RCC's shortcomings!

I can't help but take personal offense.

Has anyone else heard this particularly sleazy talking point before?

Oko is quite well known for his idiocy in Poland, so it's nothing new to me. And it's not only homosexuals who are blamed, apparently also divorces are source of paedophilia in church - http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-...ishop.html

Also church and it's right wing supporters love to blame it's sins on the others - something that church call "gender ideology" is responsible for paedophilia and it's "wore than communism" - http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree...traception

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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20-05-2015, 10:38 AM
RE: Catholic Apologists Blame Paedophilia Scandals on Gays?
Leave it to the faithful to have apologists who never apologize for anything.

"If we are honest—and scientists have to be—we must admit that religion is a jumble of false assertions, with no basis in reality.
The very idea of God is a product of the human imagination."
- Paul Dirac
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20-05-2015, 07:57 PM
RE: Catholic Apologists Blame Paedophilia Scandals on Gays?
If the priests are having sexual encounters with boys, then yes, it can be described as homosexuality on the part of the priest. The real sin however still remains pedophilia.
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06-07-2015, 10:42 AM
RE: Catholic Apologists Blame Paedophilia Scandals on Gays?
First, what we are talking about are child and adolescent sexual abuse scandals. It's very comfortable for many to blame them on pedophiles, but a significant part of the offenders were not pedophiles. It's hard to estimate how big part, in general there are studies claiming 40-85% of child sexual abuse offenders aren't pedophiles. (The difference between studies is large, it may be due to different characteristics of offenders included to the sample and differences in pedophilia definition an diagnostic criteria.) However, this number is not the same for offenders with female victims as for offenders with male victims. Multiple sources agree that offenders with male victims are much more often pedophilic. However, I wasn't able to find concrete numbers. Furthermore, the Catholic Church environment is different in availability of males and females than typical environment. Situational factors have a great effect on sex offending.

The argument I've heard many times was that a large part of victims weren't prepubescent but late pubescents and adolescents. Based on the fact that pedophiles are attracted mainly towards prepubescent children it was argued the offenders weren't pedophiles but homosexuals. This argument shouldn't be just ignored. It has to be analyzed and properly addressed.

First we should find out whether the claim a large part of victims were of pubescent and adolescent age holds. If yes, than we should ask what was their sexual orientation. It can't be just assumed they were pedophiles. But it can't be assumed they were gay either. They might be homosexual hebephiles, but I doubt they all were. Some were likely pedophiles, some gay and some heterosexuals, but I don't want to guess the ratios.

Next we may try to look at the ratios of people by sexual orientation among Catholic priests. We can expect relatively more gays and pedophiles than in general (male) population. I think the social pressure and religious reason (not being called for marriage so being called for priesthood) are likely the key factor.

But anyways, even if gay Catholic priests were more likely to commit sexual abuse than general (male) population, it still doesn't say that gays are evil. Unless there are same numbers for general gay population, it may show the situational factors in Catholic Church are the key factor. Otherwise Catholic Church apologists would have to explain why they attract the bad gays specifically.

Also, regarding child sexual abuse scandals in Catholic Church, too much effort is spent on calling pedophiles and the specific factors are missed. First, one thing that totally deserve to be criticized is how Catholic Church tried to cover up the sexual abuse cases. How the good name of church was more important than well-being of children. Next, we shouldn't overlook the role of Catholic Church in making sexual issues a taboo. Lastly, Catholic Church leads people to unhealthy authority towards religious figures.
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