Catholic church, evolution, and lies
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09-03-2017, 02:11 PM (This post was last modified: 09-03-2017 02:24 PM by jennybee.)
RE: Catholic church, evolution, and lies
(09-03-2017 12:10 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  I've gone through a similar thought process and come to similar conclusions. I often wonder how many, not only of the church leaders, but the regular parish priests and the parishioners, really believe all of the standard Catholic dogma. How many of them are basically atheists, going through the motions for social reasons? Quite a few would be my guess.

I feel the same. A major turning point for me was the Dawkins/Pell debate where Dawkins pretty much said the same thing. It actually jarred me out of my Catholic thinking--that evolution and Adam and Eve can't coexist. I would agree that quite a few religious leaders are probably more atheist than they would like to admit.
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09-03-2017, 03:39 PM
RE: Catholic church, evolution, and lies
All those stories and parables have to do with how someone wants the world to be, as opposed to how it is. The doctrine of any religion has little or nothing to do with reality, it is written as inspirational poetry.

I'm probably not one to ask. Discussing religion, for me is like discussing Star Trek.

The real one ... not any of that new crap. Angry

Ok, maybe the one with Picard. Dodgy

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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09-03-2017, 05:20 PM
RE: Catholic church, evolution, and lies
(09-03-2017 02:11 PM)jennybee Wrote:  
(09-03-2017 12:10 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  I've gone through a similar thought process and come to similar conclusions. I often wonder how many, not only of the church leaders, but the regular parish priests and the parishioners, really believe all of the standard Catholic dogma. How many of them are basically atheists, going through the motions for social reasons? Quite a few would be my guess.

I feel the same. A major turning point for me was the Dawkins/Pell debate where Dawkins pretty much said the same thing. It actually jarred me out of my Catholic thinking--that evolution and Adam and Eve can't coexist. I would agree that quite a few religious leaders are probably more atheist than they would like to admit.

Pell is...such a poor debater. Not saying it's not a good reason for a turning point in thinking, just watching him destroyed by Dawkins and Barker weren't for me. Though I can see your point. Also fuck Pell in general for his sheltering of pedophiles, hiding from the Royal Commission, and the accusations against him personally...

Though have to admit, on Grasshopper's initial point about the regular clergy, I've had my doubts twice about individual priests. One who was entirely career driven and wanted to make Bishop, and my confessor when he clutched my copy of From Apostle to Apostate, shook a bit, and said he'd heard Catherine Dunphy's name before. Most parish level priests seem to be the sort that probably don't randomly know the names of Canadian apostates.

(09-03-2017 03:39 PM)kim Wrote:  All those stories and parables have to do with how someone wants the world to be, as opposed to how it is. The doctrine of any religion has little or nothing to do with reality, it is written as inspirational poetry.

I'm probably not one to ask. Discussing religion, for me is like discussing Star Trek.

The real one ... not any of that new crap. Angry

Ok, maybe the one with Picard. Dodgy

...somehow this upsets me more than the rest of this thread. Sad I feel the irrational need to defend Captain Sisko. Sisko is my favorite Captain; Kirk's adventurous nature and Picard's diplomatic side. Plus tragic backstory, single parent trying to raise a kid out on the frontier.

Sorry to whine there!

Need to think of a witty signature.
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09-03-2017, 05:52 PM
RE: Catholic church, evolution, and lies
Unless it's some crazy cult leader, every group that leads a major religion knows it's all about controlling the masses and getting their money.

They might use 01% of their funds for charitable works and the rest lines their pockets. That's a totally made up figure because I truly have no idea, but it's probably close.

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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10-03-2017, 06:08 AM
RE: Catholic church, evolution, and lies
It's just a pragmatic move on the part of the Catholic Church, to try and make themselves seem less stupid and irrelevant. Give them their due, it has worked to an extent. And at least this produces theists more in tune with reality, even if the rationalisations are all bullshit.

I have a website here which discusses the issues and terminology surrounding religion and atheism. It's hopefully user friendly to all.
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10-03-2017, 07:43 AM
RE: Catholic church, evolution, and lies
(10-03-2017 06:08 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  It's just a pragmatic move on the part of the Catholic Church, to try and make themselves seem less stupid and irrelevant. Give them their due, it has worked to an extent. And at least this produces theists more in tune with reality, even if the rationalisations are all bullshit.

That would be a great marketing angle.
"Come, join us, we're less stupid and irrelevant."
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10-03-2017, 08:30 AM
Catholic church, evolution, and lies
The best part to any of these stories.... there was no first human.


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10-03-2017, 08:59 AM
RE: Catholic church, evolution, and lies
Another twist on this is, since the Adam and Eve story is incompatible with evolution, then one has to be wrong. Since we know (and even the church knows) evolution is correct, it makes the Adam and Eve story wrong. But this, in some form, is official Catholic doctrine so it negates the whole pope infallibility as well. Now the church may claim that the Adam and Eve story is not official doctrine because it is the message of creation, not the details, that is important. However, per my original post, that would throw original sin out the window so some aspect of it has to be official doctrine no matter how the apologists try to twist it. Therefore, the pope is wrong, infallibility is crap, and that leaves everything in the church doctrine open to crumbling down.

@DonaldTrump, Patriotism is not honoring your flag no matter what your country/leader does. It's doing whatever it takes to make your country the best it can be as long as its not violent.
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10-03-2017, 09:03 AM
RE: Catholic church, evolution, and lies
(10-03-2017 08:59 AM)Impulse Wrote:  Another twist on this is, since the Adam and Eve story is incompatible with evolution, then one has to be wrong.

I don't disagree with anything you've said here, but it entirely depends on whether one looks on the Adam/Eve story as allegorical or factual.

Most modern Christian denominations understand the story to be allegorical. It's only in some fundamentalist and Islamic circles that the story is considered as factual, which is why they fight tooth-and-nail against the teaching of the fact of evolution in schools. It undermines their faith, thereby undermining their authority.
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10-03-2017, 09:19 AM
RE: Catholic church, evolution, and lies
(10-03-2017 09:03 AM)Heath_Tierney Wrote:  I don't disagree with anything you've said here, but it entirely depends on whether one looks on the Adam/Eve story as allegorical or factual.

Most modern Christian denominations understand the story to be allegorical. It's only in some fundamentalist and Islamic circles that the story is considered as factual, which is why they fight tooth-and-nail against the teaching of the fact of evolution in schools. It undermines their faith, thereby undermining their authority.

True. However, the context of my post is specific to the Catholic church. You're correct that the implications change with other variations.

@DonaldTrump, Patriotism is not honoring your flag no matter what your country/leader does. It's doing whatever it takes to make your country the best it can be as long as its not violent.
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