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15-01-2013, 01:45 AM
Re: Catholic question
I guess its just the audacity of the whole thought process that gets me.

"People demand freedom of speech as a compensation for the freedom of thought which they seldom use." Soren Kierkegaard
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15-01-2013, 01:49 AM
RE: Catholic question
Hah, of course it does. It's religion - batshit crazy is in the charter and bylaws. Right under the section on misogyny.

"Whores perform the same function as priests, but far more thoroughly." - Robert A. Heinlein
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15-01-2013, 01:52 AM
RE: Catholic question
(15-01-2013 01:39 AM)Aseptic Skeptic Wrote:  
(14-01-2013 07:02 PM)Hobbitgirl Wrote:  As seen on a catholic website....

"If a husband chooses to get a vasectomy, how does it effect the salvation of his wife when she protested his decision?"

Cause ya know....its the womans fault.

Seriously?

I'm not sure we're taking the quote in the correct context.

(Wow, now I sound like an apologist; I almost regret that I actually meant the above statement)

What is being questioned here is not whether the woman protested the vasectomy, nor whether her allowing the vasectomy is sinful or not, nor whether anything is her fault.

Catholics are big-deal serious about no birth control. A husband and wife must be engaging in sex for procreation. Birth control of any kind is bad. If a husband puts on a condom and the wife knows he is using it and she consents to sex with that condom then they are both committing a sin. Both of them are putting their salvation at risk. If a husband sneaks on a condom and the wife doesn't know (it's possible - if she's a good Catholic she would have no experience to recognize one) then she has given no consent and only the husband is sinning.

Likewise, if the husband and wife agree to a vasectomy, then they are both agreeing to use birth control and both are jeopardizing their salvation. But if she protests and he insists and does it anyway, then he is the only one sinning and her salvation is not in danger.

So it's not about her at all - if she does the right thing she's not culpable.

My question is, after he gets the procedure and she knows about it (and properly protested to maintain her state of grace), and then she says "hey, hubby, let's go do the nasty" knowing full well that birth control is in place, is she now consenting to sinful birth control or is she off the hook based on her initial protestation of the procedure?

Now I gotta go, oh, I dunno, something like repent but not, for my self-loathing at having apologized on behalf of the Catholic asylum.

Actually, they're supposed to abstain until god decides she cannot bear children--menopause.


Wind's in the east, a mist coming in
Like something is brewing and about to begin
Can't put my finger on what lies in store
but I feel what's to happen has happened before...


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15-01-2013, 02:02 AM
RE: Catholic question
(15-01-2013 01:52 AM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  
(15-01-2013 01:39 AM)Aseptic Skeptic Wrote:  I'm not sure we're taking the quote in the correct context.

(Wow, now I sound like an apologist; I almost regret that I actually meant the above statement)

What is being questioned here is not whether the woman protested the vasectomy, nor whether her allowing the vasectomy is sinful or not, nor whether anything is her fault.

Catholics are big-deal serious about no birth control. A husband and wife must be engaging in sex for procreation. Birth control of any kind is bad. If a husband puts on a condom and the wife knows he is using it and she consents to sex with that condom then they are both committing a sin. Both of them are putting their salvation at risk. If a husband sneaks on a condom and the wife doesn't know (it's possible - if she's a good Catholic she would have no experience to recognize one) then she has given no consent and only the husband is sinning.

Likewise, if the husband and wife agree to a vasectomy, then they are both agreeing to use birth control and both are jeopardizing their salvation. But if she protests and he insists and does it anyway, then he is the only one sinning and her salvation is not in danger.

So it's not about her at all - if she does the right thing she's not culpable.

My question is, after he gets the procedure and she knows about it (and properly protested to maintain her state of grace), and then she says "hey, hubby, let's go do the nasty" knowing full well that birth control is in place, is she now consenting to sinful birth control or is she off the hook based on her initial protestation of the procedure?

Now I gotta go, oh, I dunno, something like repent but not, for my self-loathing at having apologized on behalf of the Catholic asylum.

Actually, they're supposed to abstain until god decides she cannot bear children--menopause.
Now that's just sick and wrong. Why can't god stay out of the bedroom? It's none of his business but he's more worried about what we do in the bedroom than a 15-year-old fat nerd living next to a brothel. You would God is omnipotent enough to get laid once in a while...

"Whores perform the same function as priests, but far more thoroughly." - Robert A. Heinlein
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15-01-2013, 10:09 AM
RE: Catholic question
(15-01-2013 02:02 AM)Aseptic Skeptic Wrote:  
(15-01-2013 01:52 AM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  Actually, they're supposed to abstain until god decides she cannot bear children--menopause.
Now that's just sick and wrong. Why can't god stay out of the bedroom? It's none of his business but he's more worried about what we do in the edroom than a 15-year-old fat nerd living next to a brothel. You would God is omnipotent enough to get laid once in a while...
If god did know all -- then he'd know people were going to screw. I don't think this one is about god or the bible. I think it's the catholic church that gives many shits. Personally, I find the whole thing kinda crazy. When my friend wanted to get pregnant -- her family priest told her and her husband that IVF was against god.

It's true most priests won't bring that one out often. But technically it is against the vatican that god is supposed to decide how many children one has...

But if god decides you won't be blessed with children....Then you can screw like bunnies.


Wind's in the east, a mist coming in
Like something is brewing and about to begin
Can't put my finger on what lies in store
but I feel what's to happen has happened before...


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15-01-2013, 03:21 PM
RE: Catholic question
There's really only one valid Catholic question:

How is that organization still in existence?

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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15-01-2013, 03:33 PM
RE: Catholic question
(15-01-2013 03:21 PM)Chas Wrote:  There's really only one valid Catholic question:

How is that organization still in existence?

I have asked myself that question a million times.


Wind's in the east, a mist coming in
Like something is brewing and about to begin
Can't put my finger on what lies in store
but I feel what's to happen has happened before...


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15-01-2013, 04:27 PM
RE: Catholic question
They still exist because:

1. They have a pretty building
2. They talk funny
3. They had almost total ownership of all the leaders of all the countries of Europe for nearly 2,000 years
3a. None of the leaders wanted to defy the church because that causes wars and insurrection; easier to just play along
4. Most of all, momentum - it's easier to keep doing what we're doing than to try something new and scary

"Whores perform the same function as priests, but far more thoroughly." - Robert A. Heinlein
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15-01-2013, 04:33 PM
RE: Catholic question
(15-01-2013 04:27 PM)Aseptic Skeptic Wrote:  They still exist because:

1. They have a pretty building
2. They talk funny
3. They had almost total ownership of all the leaders of all the countries of Europe for nearly 2,000 years
3a. None of the leaders wanted to defy the church because that causes wars and insurrection; easier to just play along
4. Most of all, momentum - it's easier to keep doing what we're doing than to try something new and scary


The depth, breadth, and enormity of the paedophile scandal should have destroyed the church as a viable organization. Maybe it is happening in dramatic slo-mo.
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15-01-2013, 04:38 PM
RE: Catholic question
(15-01-2013 04:27 PM)Aseptic Skeptic Wrote:  They still exist because:

1. They have a pretty building
2. They talk funny
3. They had almost total ownership of all the leaders of all the countries of Europe for nearly 2,000 years
3a. None of the leaders wanted to defy the church because that causes wars and insurrection; easier to just play along
4. Most of all, momentum - it's easier to keep doing what we're doing than to try something new and scary

Some of their buildings are gorgeous. If there is only one thing religion did give, it was the inspiration to the arts, and architecture. Ave Maria sung and performed well makes me cry. The Sistine Chapel....

If only religion had just stayed in that area -- but it didn't -- it got into land grabbing and wars...


Wind's in the east, a mist coming in
Like something is brewing and about to begin
Can't put my finger on what lies in store
but I feel what's to happen has happened before...


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