Catholics and original sin confusion
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27-06-2016, 11:12 AM
Catholics and original sin confusion
I was raised Catholic and went 1/2 heartedly practiced until I was about 30. It was honestly mostly a positive experience. I now just don't believe in the silly fairy tales and can't tolerate their horrific abuses. Anyway, I had to attend a baptism and realized I don't understand a very basic concept. Isn't baptism based on the concept of original sin which began with Adam and Eve. However, Catholics don't believe in the Eden nonsense so is original sin just a result of us being sinful and less about any original sin? What sins is a baptized baby getting washed away?
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27-06-2016, 11:17 AM
RE: Catholics and original sin confusion
Well, there's stuff like this:

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Truly, truly, I say to you, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Now, Christians love arguing whether or not this is the case, because (surprise!) the Bible makes a case for both. Original sin or not, the Bible flat-out tells people to get baptized.
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27-06-2016, 11:25 AM
RE: Catholics and original sin confusion
http://www.holycrossrochester.org/index.php?section=482

"The Catholic Church teaches that Baptism is both necessary for salvation and regenerative, causing us to be reborn as children of God. Through Baptism we receive the life-giving, sanctifying grace of the Holy Spirit. This grace wipes away Original Sin that stains each soul because of the fallen nature we inherited from Adam and Eve. The Church prescribes Baptism by water in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, as the normative gateway to God and his family, the Church. The Church has baptized infants from the earliest times and continues to do so today. The Church also teaches that catechesis must follow Baptism to properly assist the baptized on his Christian journey. Both immersion and sprinkling are acceptable forms of Baptism in the Catholic Church.

Takes away all sin. Now, why delay? Get up and have yourself baptized and your sins washed away, calling upon his name. Acts 22:16

To be administered to children. People were bringing even infants to him ... whoever does not accept the kingdom of God like a child will not enter it. Luke 18:15-17

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27-06-2016, 11:43 AM
RE: Catholics and original sin confusion
(27-06-2016 11:12 AM)Chrisinfp Wrote:  I was raised Catholic and went 1/2 heartedly practiced until I was about 30. It was honestly mostly a positive experience. I now just don't believe in the silly fairy tales and can't tolerate their horrific abuses. Anyway, I had to attend a baptism and realized I don't understand a very basic concept. Isn't baptism based on the concept of original sin which began with Adam and Eve. However, Catholics don't believe in the Eden nonsense so is original sin just a result of us being sinful and less about any original sin? What sins is a baptized baby getting washed away?

Just a minor correction. Catholics do believe in the Eden nonsense. They are free to believe in theistic evolution nonsense. But also the Eden nonsense. They can even combine them.

The questions you raise may be valid ONLY if you are interested in the truth. But there is no shortage of rationalizations the Catholics can come up with because they are not interested in or won't accept the truth.

We have to remember that what we observe is not nature herself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning ~ Werner Heisenberg
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27-06-2016, 12:27 PM
RE: Catholics and original sin confusion
I was raised Catholic and my parents believed the Eden story as historical fact and in original sin. They only baptized their first kid though, my brother but me and my two sisters were never cleansed of our baby sin. I'm not sure why but my dad has reminded me that I will go to Hell anyway because of that and plus I'm an atheist.

I asked if I were to get baptized now would that help and he said yes but only if I truly believed, if I get baptized as an atheist I would be even more damned...not sure how that works. I mean if there are levels of Hell I'd end up in a really bad one I guess but I would like to see what would happen. I mean would the water start boiling and burn me and whoever is baptizing me and then we hear a loud roar cackling with laughter all around us? Gasp

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27-06-2016, 12:31 PM
RE: Catholics and original sin confusion
(27-06-2016 12:27 PM)SitaSky Wrote:  I was raised Catholic and my parents believed the Eden story as historical fact and in original sin. They only baptized their first kid though, my brother but me and my two sisters were never cleansed of our baby sin. I'm not sure why but my dad has reminded me that I will go to Hell anyway because of that and plus I'm an atheist.

I asked if I were to get baptized now would that help and he said yes but only if I truly believed, if I get baptized as an atheist I would be even more damned...not sure how that works. I mean if there are levels of Hell I'd end up in a really bad one I guess but I would like to see what would happen. I mean would the water start boiling and burn me and whoever is baptizing me and then we hear a loud roar cackling with laughter all around us? Gasp

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27-06-2016, 12:34 PM
RE: Catholics and original sin confusion
(27-06-2016 11:12 AM)Chrisinfp Wrote:  What sins is a baptized baby getting washed away?

As others have noted, it is the Original Sin.

What's even more fucked up, is that they still will not repudiate the doctrine that unbaptized people go to hell. All they say is that they hope and pray for god's mercy and understanding. Or some bullshit like that.

So not only do parents get to mourn dead infants, in the back of their mind they have to wonder if the baby gets to go to heaven.

Help for the living. Hope for the dead. ~ R.G. Ingersoll

Freedom offers opportunity. Opportunity confers responsibility. Responsibility to use the freedom we enjoy wisely, honestly and humanely. ~ Noam Chomsky
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27-06-2016, 02:23 PM
RE: Catholics and original sin confusion
Pretty much hit by everyone already. But, simultaneously clear and murky tends to be the party line. You're free to believe in a historical Eden, you're free to believe in theistic evolution, you're free to just believe God took a hand's off approach as long as you believe at some point we reached a time where he breathed Spirit into some early (or recent) hominids.

Personally this is one of the things I struggle with at times. Because if Eden is allegorical, then what about original sin? If there is no Adam, why is there a need for Christ to be a type of "Second Adam"? Etc.

(27-06-2016 12:27 PM)SitaSky Wrote:  I was raised Catholic and my parents believed the Eden story as historical fact and in original sin. They only baptized their first kid though, my brother but me and my two sisters were never cleansed of our baby sin. I'm not sure why but my dad has reminded me that I will go to Hell anyway because of that and plus I'm an atheist.

I asked if I were to get baptized now would that help and he said yes but only if I truly believed, if I get baptized as an atheist I would be even more damned...not sure how that works. I mean if there are levels of Hell I'd end up in a really bad one I guess but I would like to see what would happen. I mean would the water start boiling and burn me and whoever is baptizing me and then we hear a loud roar cackling with laughter all around us? Gasp

We can fix that you know. Adult Baptism, Confirmation, First Holy Communion trifecta after RCIA sessions. Come on, it could be a fun post-birthday gift to yourself, spending 3 hours a week at church learning about theology, dogma, and doctrine for the next 9-12 months depending on the diocese! Big Grin Heck, in a life or death emergency, anyone could baptize you, doesn't have to be clergy! Or we accept competitor baptisms for the most part, as long as they were done in the Trinitarian formula! So if you want to go become an Evangelical and then cross the Tiber, it'll be okay! (I totally know the answer is no to all of those, but imagining the look on folks' faces is enough of a reason to have said it.)

Need to think of a witty signature.
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27-06-2016, 02:26 PM
RE: Catholics and original sin confusion
(27-06-2016 11:17 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  Well, there's stuff like this:

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Truly, truly, I say to you, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

It just means that man evolved from fish. Tongue

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27-06-2016, 02:50 PM
RE: Catholics and original sin confusion
(27-06-2016 02:23 PM)Shai Hulud Wrote:  Pretty much hit by everyone already. But, simultaneously clear and murky tends to be the party line. You're free to believe in a historical Eden, you're free to believe in theistic evolution, you're free to just believe God took a hand's off approach as long as you believe at some point we reached a time where he breathed Spirit into some early (or recent) hominids.

Personally this is one of the things I struggle with at times. Because if Eden is allegorical, then what about original sin? If there is no Adam, why is there a need for Christ to be a type of "Second Adam"? Etc.

(27-06-2016 12:27 PM)SitaSky Wrote:  I was raised Catholic and my parents believed the Eden story as historical fact and in original sin. They only baptized their first kid though, my brother but me and my two sisters were never cleansed of our baby sin. I'm not sure why but my dad has reminded me that I will go to Hell anyway because of that and plus I'm an atheist.

I asked if I were to get baptized now would that help and he said yes but only if I truly believed, if I get baptized as an atheist I would be even more damned...not sure how that works. I mean if there are levels of Hell I'd end up in a really bad one I guess but I would like to see what would happen. I mean would the water start boiling and burn me and whoever is baptizing me and then we hear a loud roar cackling with laughter all around us? Gasp

We can fix that you know. Adult Baptism, Confirmation, First Holy Communion trifecta after RCIA sessions. Come on, it could be a fun post-birthday gift to yourself, spending 3 hours a week at church learning about theology, dogma, and doctrine for the next 9-12 months depending on the diocese! Big Grin Heck, in a life or death emergency, anyone could baptize you, doesn't have to be clergy! Or we accept competitor baptisms for the most part, as long as they were done in the Trinitarian formula! So if you want to go become an Evangelical and then cross the Tiber, it'll be okay! (I totally know the answer is no to all of those, but imagining the look on folks' faces is enough of a reason to have said it.)

Basically, the Catholic tries to have his cake and eat it. One reason I have more respect for straight up fairy tale creationists. They keep it simple and stupid. The Catholic makes it complicated, dishonest and stupid.

We have to remember that what we observe is not nature herself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning ~ Werner Heisenberg
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