Catholics and original sin confusion
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27-06-2016, 03:03 PM
RE: Catholics and original sin confusion
The nuns told me that we were all born sinners, and we inherited sinner status from Eve. They said when babies are born and die before baptizing, or die before birth, they go to purgatory.

I am told that the catholics got rid of purgatory now (what happened to all those millions of babies? How can you even do that?). But definitely y'all are sinners, you were born that way. Evil_monster

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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27-06-2016, 03:31 PM
RE: Catholics and original sin confusion
If the sin stain is inherited, then I shouldn't have any sin because all my great grand parents were baptized as children.

Problem solved.

If it were possible to inherit stuff from fictional characters, I would be a Jedi / Kryptonian / Vampire / Werewolf / Mage.

And my DNA would be HUGE !!

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27-06-2016, 03:39 PM
RE: Catholics and original sin confusion
(27-06-2016 02:50 PM)tomilay Wrote:  
(27-06-2016 02:23 PM)Shai Hulud Wrote:  Pretty much hit by everyone already. But, simultaneously clear and murky tends to be the party line. You're free to believe in a historical Eden, you're free to believe in theistic evolution, you're free to just believe God took a hand's off approach as long as you believe at some point we reached a time where he breathed Spirit into some early (or recent) hominids.

Personally this is one of the things I struggle with at times. Because if Eden is allegorical, then what about original sin? If there is no Adam, why is there a need for Christ to be a type of "Second Adam"? Etc.


We can fix that you know. Adult Baptism, Confirmation, First Holy Communion trifecta after RCIA sessions. Come on, it could be a fun post-birthday gift to yourself, spending 3 hours a week at church learning about theology, dogma, and doctrine for the next 9-12 months depending on the diocese! Big Grin Heck, in a life or death emergency, anyone could baptize you, doesn't have to be clergy! Or we accept competitor baptisms for the most part, as long as they were done in the Trinitarian formula! So if you want to go become an Evangelical and then cross the Tiber, it'll be okay! (I totally know the answer is no to all of those, but imagining the look on folks' faces is enough of a reason to have said it.)

Basically, the Catholic tries to have his cake and eat it. One reason I have more respect for straight up fairy tale creationists. They keep it simple and stupid. The Catholic makes it complicated, dishonest and stupid.
"To each their own" is somewhat the party line. Creationism, Theistic Evolution, evolution, etc. As long as one doesn't credit the Flying Spaghetti Monster, pretty sure no one in the church hierarchy cares. (Though that 'no one cares' bit probably applies to most of the career clergy who make Bishop and above.)

(27-06-2016 03:03 PM)Dom Wrote:  The nuns told me that we were all born sinners, and we inherited sinner status from Eve. They said when babies are born and die before baptizing, or die before birth, they go to purgatory.

I am told that the catholics got rid of purgatory now (what happened to all those millions of babies? How can you even do that?). But definitely y'all are sinners, you were born that way. Evil_monster
Last I checked, we still had it, but I could be wrong. Maybe thinking of the theory of Limbo, which while conceived of by Medieval theologians was never actually a dogmatic part of the Catholic Church, even though it was popularly thought to be?

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27-06-2016, 03:45 PM
RE: Catholics and original sin confusion
(27-06-2016 03:03 PM)Dom Wrote:  The nuns told me that we were all born sinners, and we inherited sinner status from Eve. They said when babies are born and die before baptizing, or die before birth, they go to purgatory.

I am told that the catholics got rid of purgatory now (what happened to all those millions of babies? How can you even do that?). But definitely y'all are sinners, you were born that way. Evil_monster

I thought unbaptized babies went to Limbo...which is no longer a thing.

Purgatory was when you did something not really bad and you could burn off those venial sins and get promoted to heaven.

Limbo was there because your not-baptizedness wasn't your fault. Your were just a baby and couldn't do anything about it...your parents were to blame.

Carlin even did a bit about what happens to unbaptized babies - Whip 'em into Limbo.

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27-06-2016, 03:46 PM
RE: Catholics and original sin confusion
(27-06-2016 12:34 PM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  
(27-06-2016 11:12 AM)Chrisinfp Wrote:  What sins is a baptized baby getting washed away?

As others have noted, it is the Original Sin.

What's even more fucked up, is that they still will not repudiate the doctrine that unbaptized people go to hell. All they say is that they hope and pray for god's mercy and understanding. Or some bullshit like that.

So not only do parents get to mourn dead infants, in the back of their mind they have to wonder if the baby gets to go to heaven.

That's because babies used to go to limbo, where they didn't go to heaven or hell or purgatory. The recent catholic teachings eliminated limbo, but some Catholics will still frantically look for a miscarried fetus to baptize it. The church says a lump of tissue can be baptized by a lay person in the event of an emergency.

Yes, original sin, but only until you're around 5 or 6...then you are actively sinning until your first confession and communion.


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And without so much as a mere touch, cut me into little pieces

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27-06-2016, 03:51 PM
RE: Catholics and original sin confusion
(27-06-2016 11:12 AM)Chrisinfp Wrote:  Anyway, I had to attend a baptism and realized I don't understand a very basic concept. Isn't baptism based on the concept of original sin which began with Adam and Eve. However, Catholics don't believe in the Eden nonsense so is original sin just a result of us being sinful and less about any original sin? What sins is a baptized baby getting washed away?
I'm not sure how sin, original sin, baptism by water can be understandable.

What does sin even mean? Does it mean knowingly and willingly choosing and doing immoral things according to the god's law?
If this is the case, then how does a baby do that?
How, does an adult do this when the god is silent and doesn't let us know what is right and what is wrong?
Is sin an aspect of DNA or epigenetics hence it can be inherited?
If it is a genetic thing then how can we have choice to sin or not?
BTW, what relevance is there with regards to sin when all you need to do is to believe.
If that is the case, then how do we justify the Catholic position that Jesus (and Mary) are devoid of original sin. (Are they not human? Did Jesus not experience a true human life?).

Jesus' supposed death really wasn't a blood sacrifice, there was no alter, no magical words were spoken, his supposed death wasn't as a sacrifice to the gods. He was supposedly killed by the romans, for a crime or for political ambition or to quell the dissodents. (for whatever reason, but it wasn't as a sacrifice to the gods). Jesus didn't offer himself as a sacrifice. It wasn't his idea, it wasn't his choice.
Even if it was a blood sacrifice, how does the death of a mortal animal atone for sin? I mean, if your child is naughty and draws on the wallpaper, you don't demand that an animal be killed in order to "forgive" your child. You certainly don't go an kill an innocent child and claim that this atones your own guilty child of his/her crime.
If you feel that someone has done you wrong, if you feel that you are angry, hold resentment or are disappointed in that person, then this is your problem, not theirs. They don't need to atone as the problem is yours. You get rid of your problem merely by chilling, shrugging your shoulders and moving on. If you can't do that then YOU are lacking in self control.
Water- How does water wash away sin? H2O is a physical substance. Sin is a concept, or perhaps some spiritual state. How does water cross the physical realm into the spiritual? It doesn't. This is purely a symbolic gesture. It really has no relevance to anything. The meaning is all in your own head, your own imagination. There really is no cleansing of actual sin. It is a person playing make believe and believing that they have transitions from one imaginary state to another.
How do you know if baptism has been performed properly?
Is there anyway to distinguish a baptised person from a non baptised person?
I've had plenty of showers, and baths, I've been swimming etc, I drink water pretty much most days. Sometimes in summer I'll have a water pistol fight with my kids. Am I baptised or not?

And yeah, as I understand it, Catholics believe in Adam and Eve as well as evolution even though these things are contradictory.
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27-06-2016, 04:23 PM
RE: Catholics and original sin confusion
(27-06-2016 03:45 PM)Anjele Wrote:  
(27-06-2016 03:03 PM)Dom Wrote:  The nuns told me that we were all born sinners, and we inherited sinner status from Eve. They said when babies are born and die before baptizing, or die before birth, they go to purgatory.

I am told that the catholics got rid of purgatory now (what happened to all those millions of babies? How can you even do that?). But definitely y'all are sinners, you were born that way. Evil_monster

I thought unbaptized babies went to Limbo...which is no longer a thing.

Purgatory was when you did something not really bad and you could burn off those venial sins and get promoted to heaven.

Limbo was there because your not-baptizedness wasn't your fault. Your were just a baby and couldn't do anything about it...your parents were to blame.

Carlin even did a bit about what happens to unbaptized babies - Whip 'em into Limbo.

Yeah, I am sure you are right. It's been a long time and I wasn't into it anymore when I had the nuns as teachers... so then they got rid of limbo and dumped all those babies - where?

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27-06-2016, 04:28 PM
RE: Catholics and original sin confusion
(27-06-2016 03:46 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  [quote='Fatbaldhobbit' pid='1021450' dateline='1467052459']

Yes, original sin, but only until you're around 5 or 6...then you are actively sinning until your first confession and communion.

Whaaaa... but then, after 5 or 6 we would be immortal and would never have to work unless we sin consciously? Aren't work and death part of the punishment package that includes original sin?

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27-06-2016, 04:48 PM
RE: Catholics and original sin confusion
It's time for our musical interlude - from the hymnal of Tom Lehrer.




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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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27-06-2016, 05:15 PM
RE: Catholics and original sin confusion
(27-06-2016 04:23 PM)Dom Wrote:  
(27-06-2016 03:45 PM)Anjele Wrote:  I thought unbaptized babies went to Limbo...which is no longer a thing.

Purgatory was when you did something not really bad and you could burn off those venial sins and get promoted to heaven.

Limbo was there because your not-baptizedness wasn't your fault. Your were just a baby and couldn't do anything about it...your parents were to blame.

Carlin even did a bit about what happens to unbaptized babies - Whip 'em into Limbo.

Yeah, I am sure you are right. It's been a long time and I wasn't into it anymore when I had the nuns as teachers... so then they got rid of limbo and dumped all those babies - where?

Carlin wondered the same. In the Limbo bit he said he hoped they weren't just floating around in space.

I honestly don't recall ever hearing an answer to that out of the Church.

See here they are the bruises some were self-inflicted and some showed up along the way. - JF

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