Catholics aren't the only ones redeemed, it seems.
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23-05-2013, 05:39 PM
RE: Catholics aren't the only ones redeemed, it seems.
I'm glad they're not talking burning us at the stake anymore, but why say this? Either (a) if we atheists were ok all along, then why bother attending their church and following their rules? Or (b) we are still screwed and are going to hell because of nonbelief, he is just saying we are not monsters.

Don't get me wrong--I'm glad we are even being acknowledged as something other than subhuman, but it seems pointless because belief in god, Jebus, the trinity, blood redemption and all that jazz would still be necessary to be in their ranks, all the things many of us discarded a long time ago.

Interesting anyhow.

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24-05-2013, 01:19 PM
RE: Catholics aren't the only ones redeemed, it seems.
Quote:I think what the Pope has said is being misunderstood by a lot of people, both believers and nonbelievers. There is a big difference between redemption and salvation. He is not saying Atheists will go the heaven. He is merely saying that when his Jesus was crucified and resurrected, all human beings were absolved of sin... given redemption...nothing more. When he talks of "meeting there together", he is talking about coming together here on earth to do good things together. He has carefully chosen his words. As to his motives? That's up for grabs but I think #1 is the public image of the Catholic Church.
It's an official doctrine of the Catholic Church that the Mass and other salvific acts provide atonement/redemption for all. That's right, Hitler may go to Heaven because of what the church has done. Isn't that comforting?

Other than invoking Godwin's Law, I want to reiterate than anyone may go to Heaven because of what Jesus Christ has done, not a church or church members.
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24-05-2013, 02:20 PM
RE: Catholics aren't the only ones redeemed, it seems.
(24-05-2013 01:19 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Other than invoking Godwin's Law, I want to reiterate than anyone may go to Heaven because of what Jesus Christ has done, not a church or church members.

Thanks for alerting us to the risk Dodgy
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24-05-2013, 03:38 PM
RE: Catholics aren't the only ones redeemed, it seems.
You apparently underestimate the sacrifice of the Christ you seem to so fervently believe in.

(24-05-2013 01:19 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  I want to reiterate that everyone will go to Heaven because of what Jesus Christ has done, not a church or church members.

There, I fixt it for ya. Tongue

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24-05-2013, 03:54 PM
RE: Catholics aren't the only ones redeemed, it seems.
PJ,

If we are saved by grace and not by works... what then happens to those to whom grace was not given? When someone goes to hell, what does that say about the grace of Jesus? When someone goes to hell for what? For not believing? For not believing an old book that there is every reason to doubt the content of? Hitler can go to heaven, but Gandhi can't. A rapist can join his victims in heaven, the paedophile can go to heaven while his victims burn in Hell. Is this what you are calling justice? Perfect forgiveness based on one trait only? The one trait of belief or non-belief? Someone who genuinely doesn't and can't believe goes to hell, while someone who believes easily and does evil his whole life is saved?

This isn't just immoral, it's a brainwashing tactic. Don't let your beliefs waver. They might topple over and crash around you. They might be lost. Then what? Then what? Then, hell fire. Eternal torment. Little children come to me, and don't let your beliefs waver. Squash that flicker of doubt. It will only do you harm. You'll burn burn burn for it. You'll be sorry. I'll make you sorry little children.

That's the gospel. That's the good news.

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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24-05-2013, 04:30 PM
RE: Catholics aren't the only ones redeemed, it seems.
(24-05-2013 03:54 PM)Hafnof Wrote:  PJ,

If we are saved by grace and not by works... what then happens to those to whom grace was not given? When someone goes to hell, what does that say about the grace of Jesus? When someone goes to hell for what? For not believing? For not believing an old book that there is every reason to doubt the content of? Hitler can go to heaven, but Gandhi can't. A rapist can join his victims in heaven, the paedophile can go to heaven while his victims burn in Hell. Is this what you are calling justice? Perfect forgiveness based on one trait only? The one trait of belief or non-belief? Someone who genuinely doesn't and can't believe goes to hell, while someone who believes easily and does evil his whole life is saved?

This isn't just immoral, it's a brainwashing tactic. Don't let your beliefs waver. They might topple over and crash around you. They might be lost. Then what? Then what? Then, hell fire. Eternal torment. Little children come to me, and don't let your beliefs waver. Squash that flicker of doubt. It will only do you harm. You'll burn burn burn for it. You'll be sorry. I'll make you sorry little children.

That's the gospel. That's the good news.

I don't think it is "the good news", Hafnof.

I think beliefs like these are the prerequisite for good news.


I mean, listen to that as all of humanities fate, now watch any bit of news. After that, it is all good news. It can only get better from there, man.

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24-05-2013, 09:02 PM
RE: Catholics aren't the only ones redeemed, it seems.
The best response is...

take your Jesus, your heaven, hell, sacrifices, atonements, judgements and church and shove them where the sun don't shine.

We, the world's people, don't need any part of your antiquated belief system.
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27-05-2013, 09:10 PM
RE: Catholics aren't the only ones redeemed, it seems.
(23-05-2013 10:30 AM)CaliforniaSurf Wrote:  Gee, thanks, Your Holiness, for not accusing me of being a heretic.


(23-05-2013 04:14 AM)cheapthrillseaker Wrote:  Well it seems the Pope thinks atheists are also redeemed. The Huffington Post reports it here.

I gtg, but will relay what I think when I get back.

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