Catholics vs. TTA......Respectfully.....
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17-10-2013, 09:17 PM
Catholics vs. TTA......Respectfully.....
So due to recent developments in the "Real debat with fundies" thread, I've decided to start this thread. I'd like to have a civil, respectful discussion with them, pertaining to the same issue that was discussed on their forum. I believe it was homosexuality. I didn't read the thread, so I don't know what all was laid out, but here's a chance to put it out there, without the usual threat of being banned for going against the grain.

I'd invite Chesterbelloc, LouisIX, and anyone else that might want to join in for the catholics to feel free to be heard here.

I'd like to ask the members of TTA to be respectful and civilized during this discussion, as I believe as human being we are capable of doing so in any circumstance, so long as we understand that these are just ideas that we are presenting in this particular argument.

Put your heartfelt emotion into your argument, not into petty insults.

So then, catholics........why do you see it as a moral right to be able to legislate against homosexuality?

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

~ Umberto Eco
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17-10-2013, 10:00 PM
Catholics vs. TTA......Respectfully.....
Great idea. The following story started that thread: http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013/09/...hallenges/

I made the statement that this is a violation of the cake shop's first amendment rights, and the Catholics explained that they hate religious liberty and homosexuals. The rest was craziness.

"Laissez nous faire!"

"I swear by my life and my love of it that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor will I ever ask another man to live for mine."
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17-10-2013, 10:30 PM
RE: Catholics vs. TTA......Respectfully.....
I would agree that the cake shop has the right to provide service as it chooses. I don't want this thread to pursue that particular situation, though.

Good to know the catalyst, but I'm not sure it's the best foundation for any accomplishment here.

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

~ Umberto Eco
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17-10-2013, 10:39 PM
Catholics vs. TTA......Respectfully.....
Right, the thread quickly got away from that and took on the dimension of gay rights. Namely, that I argued gays should have rights and they argued that only the church should have rights and not gays.

"Laissez nous faire!"

"I swear by my life and my love of it that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor will I ever ask another man to live for mine."
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17-10-2013, 10:51 PM
RE: Catholics vs. TTA......Respectfully.....
Which, I suppose will be the argument here. But I would like to allow the newcomers to present their entire argument freely. I realize it's a very complicated issue, but I heard a complaint that we atheists won't allow for explanation before attack.

I'd like to start a productive exchange if it's possible. We are all intelligent (I don't necessarily claim such for myself) human beings who are capable of honest, respectful discussion.

I'd like to see one happen for once.

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

~ Umberto Eco
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17-10-2013, 11:16 PM
RE: Catholics vs. TTA......Respectfully.....
"Why do we feel it is a moral right to legislate against homosexuality?"

We believe that we have the right to legislate against homosexuality because such acts are sinful. All sins offend God and injure man.

However, Catholics do not believe that every sin should be a law in government.

"Human law is framed for a number of human beings, the majority of whom are not perfect in virtue. Wherefore human laws do not forbid vices from which the virtuous abstain, but only the more grievous vices, from which it is possible for the majority to abstain, and chiefly those which are to the hurt of others, without the prohibition of which a human society could not be maintained: thus human law prohibits murder,
theft, and suchlike.” (S.T. I-II, p.96, a. 2)" St Thomas Aquinas

Homosexual acts are something which the majority can abstain from and thus it is helpful to forbid them for the pleasure of God and the sake of public virtue.
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17-10-2013, 11:44 PM
Catholics vs. TTA......Respectfully.....
(17-10-2013 11:16 PM)nmoerbeek Wrote:  "Why do we feel it is a moral right to legislate against homosexuality?"

We believe that we have the right to legislate against homosexuality because such acts are sinful. All sins offend God and injure man.

However, Catholics do not believe that every sin should be a law in government.

"Human law is framed for a number of human beings, the majority of whom are not perfect in virtue. Wherefore human laws do not forbid vices from which the virtuous abstain, but only the more grievous vices, from which it is possible for the majority to abstain, and chiefly those which are to the hurt of others, without the prohibition of which a human society could not be maintained: thus human law prohibits murder,
theft, and suchlike.” (S.T. I-II, p.96, a. 2)" St Thomas Aquinas

Homosexual acts are something which the majority can abstain from and thus it is helpful to forbid them for the pleasure of God and the sake of public virtue.

What about non-Catholics? Should they be forbidden from homosexual acts?

"Laissez nous faire!"

"I swear by my life and my love of it that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor will I ever ask another man to live for mine."
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18-10-2013, 12:03 AM
RE: Catholics vs. TTA......Respectfully.....
(17-10-2013 11:16 PM)nmoerbeek Wrote:  Homosexual acts are something which the majority can abstain from and thus it is helpful to forbid them for the pleasure of God and the sake of public virtue.

Why exactly would it offend god if a homosexual act is commited?

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

~ Umberto Eco
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18-10-2013, 12:23 AM (This post was last modified: 18-10-2013 02:22 AM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: Catholics vs. TTA......Respectfully.....
(17-10-2013 11:16 PM)nmoerbeek Wrote:  "Why do we feel it is a moral right to legislate against homosexuality?"

We believe that we have the right to legislate against homosexuality because such acts are sinful. All sins offend God and injure man.

However, Catholics do not believe that every sin should be a law in government.

"Human law is framed for a number of human beings, the majority of whom are not perfect in virtue. Wherefore human laws do not forbid vices from which the virtuous abstain, but only the more grievous vices, from which it is possible for the majority to abstain, and chiefly those which are to the hurt of others, without the prohibition of which a human society could not be maintained: thus human law prohibits murder,
theft, and suchlike.” (S.T. I-II, p.96, a. 2)" St Thomas Aquinas

Homosexual acts are something which the majority can abstain from and thus it is helpful to forbid them for the pleasure of God and the sake of public virtue.

Hi, and welcome to the forum. Please digest the following facts.

The John Jay survey revealed that almost forty-five hundred catholic clergy perpetrators in the USA had been reported by their own dioceses as child sex abusers since 1950, 4.3 percent of those actively working as priests in the period, and that at least ten thousand known victims had made plausible allegations against priests. The authors made the point that these figures were almost certainly an underestimate and that the church would face many more allegations in the years to come. Most victims were aged eleven to fourteen and eighty-one percent were boys. This is good evidence that most catholic priest paedophiles are homosexuals. Seventy-six percent of the allegations made against priests had never been reported to law enforcement authorities.

Estimates of the rate of homosexuality amongst Catholic American priests range from 23% to over 50% (http://www.latrompette.net/post/A-e005-R...of-God.htm , http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/02/26...550.html).

Richard Sype, who has authored six books about child sex abuse by priests, claims that

“Dioceses throughout the United States are now recording an average of 7 to 9 percent priest abusers of minors in their records.” (http://www.richardsipe.com/Dialogue/Dial...–23.html).

Now please answer these questions...

Given the disproportionately high rate of homosexuality in the catholic priesthood, and that most of them are, or have been, no doubt, sexually active in one way or another, don't you think it's rather hypocritical of catholics to be preaching against homosexuality?

Is not the rape of little children a heinious crime, whereas sex between two consenting
adults hurts no one?

Shouldn't the catholic church remove the plank from it's own eye before searching for the speck in others, particularly as it has protected the homosexual paedophiles in it's own ranks, thereby endangering thousands of children?
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18-10-2013, 02:12 AM
RE: Catholics vs. TTA......Respectfully.....
(17-10-2013 11:16 PM)nmoerbeek Wrote:  We believe that we have the right to legislate against homosexuality because such acts are sinful.

And we believe differently. In particular this concept of sin, based on some God who preferentially talks to only certain people, hardly seems like a basis for laws affecting all people, including those who do not pledge allegiance to your God.

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If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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