Catholics vs. TTA......Respectfully.....
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18-10-2013, 12:02 PM
RE: Catholics vs. TTA......Respectfully.....
(18-10-2013 11:31 AM)nmoerbeek Wrote:  
(18-10-2013 11:24 AM)nach_in Wrote:  we're not adversaries because we believe different things, we are because you want to force your beliefs onto me Drinking Beverage

Force? Or course not. I am sharing them that is why I came here. If you mean I will vote to pass laws against homosexuality then yes I will, but it is because I believe those things offend God and hurt people.

Once again I believe these things because of revelation, I truly believe Christ was raised from the dead and the subsequent Apostles, Martyrs and Confessors that have kept and spread the Faith till this very age.

Oh, so you're all cuddles and love until you get some actual power on your hands, how comforting

So you're just "potentially" going to force your beliefs on me, like countless others before you who kept and spread the faith, by word and fire.

Oh, and you say homosexuality hurts people, but I never heard of anyone committing suicide because of homosexuality, I heard they did it because of homophobia though... Of course you'll say that your faith doesn't condone violence or intolerance, but you are only pacifists and respectful until you get some power, when you get it the queer-bashing and the hate crimes come, then you ban teaching anything about homosexuality, just because it hurts the children... then the criminalization comes... and then the death penalties, and people start dying in the name of your god. The good and holy God...

And I'm not talking about history by the way. This is happening right now in catholic countries around the world. How do you explain that? how do you explain that your faith and your god so surely lead to abuse of power and murder? aren't all those catholics catholics now? the only true catholics are the ones who talk about love and roses?

No dude, you want to be part of that community, of that church, you take it all, the good AND the bad. Explain to me then, how do you justify the ugly part of your faith?

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18-10-2013, 12:04 PM
RE: Catholics vs. TTA......Respectfully.....
(18-10-2013 11:31 AM)nmoerbeek Wrote:  Force? Or course not. I am sharing them that is why I came here. If you mean I will vote to pass laws against homosexuality then yes I will, but it is because I believe those things offend God and hurt people.

Thats an interesting concept. What makes you think that your all powerful, all knowing god *needs* you to prevent him from being offended? If god didn't want to be offended, surely he has the capacity to either create a world wherein these offenses don't actually occur, or he is unwilling to do so because he actually could give 2 shits about the copulation habits of a primate. Bonobos copulate of once every 4-5 waking minutes. They copulate with males, females, infants, whatever...It doesn't matter.

God created this too, no?
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18-10-2013, 12:04 PM
RE: Catholics vs. TTA......Respectfully.....
(18-10-2013 11:24 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  The Catholic cult didn't invent the "Sacrament of Matrimony" until the Council of Trent.
Oops. 1500 years of immoral/wasted seed. Tongue
That is incorrect. The Council of Trent merely reaffirmed the sacraments, in response to protestants questioning them. The Orthodox Churches, for example, also recognized the same seven sacraments, including matrimony, and they did not (and do not) acknowledge the Council of Trent. The Oriental Orthodox Communion came into schism in the fifth century.

You may have been confused by the Lutheran rejection of the sacrament. Or by the change in the way the sacrament was 'performed'.
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18-10-2013, 12:22 PM
Catholics vs. TTA......Respectfully.....
(18-10-2013 12:04 PM)Othmar Wrote:  
(18-10-2013 11:24 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  The Catholic cult didn't invent the "Sacrament of Matrimony" until the Council of Trent.
Oops. 1500 years of immoral/wasted seed. Tongue
That is incorrect. The Council of Trent merely reaffirmed the sacraments, in response to protestants questioning them. The Orthodox Churches, for example, also recognized the same seven sacraments, including matrimony, and they did not (and do not) acknowledge the Council of Trent. The Oriental Orthodox Communion came into schism in the fifth century.

You may have been confused by the Lutheran rejection of the sacrament. Or by the change in the way the sacrament was 'performed'.

Civil marriages are certainly not a sacrament, so why should the Catholic Church dictate civil marriage?

"Laissez nous faire!"

"I swear by my life and my love of it that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor will I ever ask another man to live for mine."
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18-10-2013, 12:24 PM
RE: Catholics vs. TTA......Respectfully.....
(18-10-2013 11:20 AM)nmoerbeek Wrote:  Nope. For one you cannot engage in sexual acts outside of the sacrament of marriage and God has restricted the placing of seed into the vagina in Revelation so the argument would not work for other behaviors even between heterosexuals.

Where is the word VAGINA in Genesis?
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18-10-2013, 12:42 PM
RE: Catholics vs. TTA......Respectfully.....
Coming in late here. Geez, forget to check the forum for one day...

(18-10-2013 10:11 AM)nmoerbeek Wrote:  This thread asked me why Catholics believe we should legislate homosexuality, I answered that question.

Actually, the question that you answered was why Catholics think homosexuality is immoral. This is in itself a topic worthy of extensive examination, but it is not the question the OP asked. The OP asked why Catholicism wants to legislate against homosexuality, and you have not taken the step from "we think it is immoral" to "therefore, we should legislate against it", other than to simply assert the right to legislate against that which you deem immoral.

I will grant that this is a natural step to take. Why wouldn't someone take it? Well, one obvious reason would be humility. Awareness of one's own flaws. The willingness to acknowledge the possibility of error in reasoning, and to then not foist that potential error upon others without careful examination and reexamination of the means by which one has arrived at the conclusion, the reliability of the method of reaching that conclusion, and the supposed necessity of forcing others into obedience of that conclusion by means of the sword of the State (and all its vicious consequences) rather than tolerating that they continue in perceived error.

Of course, ANYONE could reason themselves into inaction on this basis, but I would suggest that this humility is more needed in people and institutions with a proven history of making bad calls and then forcing these bad calls upon others. Such a person or institution should ask the following questions before proceeding, and, ideally, ask them of others, since it is their own judgement they are questioning. Are they aware of the previous errors they made, and their scope? What predilection or tendencies led them into their earlier errors? Have they correctly identified these? Have they sufficiently excised them? Are these same tendencies to error at work in the current issue?

So let's start with the first. Are you (or any Catholic present) aware of the previous errors made by Catholicism, and the scope of those errors? If you are aware of these errors and their scope, what led the Catholic Church into these errors? Has the Church made sufficient efforts to examine the root of these errors and excise them, or are those predilections still at work in the present issue?

It may inform your responses to know that I ask these questions as a person of Jewish heritage, if not Jewish faith.

My own view is that the Church has acknowledged some of its errors but is in deep denial about others. It has not engaged in sufficient introspection to understand the root of its many, many errors, made no effort to excise these roots (rather, it has embraced the roots, even if it has pruned away a few of the particular errors that sprouted from these roots), and these same predilections are also at the root of the Catholic Church's crusade against LGBTetc rights. On this basis, I say that Catholic reasoning in general should be held unreliable in this matter until it makes at least a decent effort to identify the cause of its previous errors and confirm that the same mistakes are not being repeated, and must not be trusted to guide the pen of the legislator. I have little tolerance for the Church's pretense of moral grounds, right, or duty to dictate to the lives of those not its members, and even less when those it seeks to dictate to are its traditional victims.
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18-10-2013, 01:09 PM
RE: Catholics vs. TTA......Respectfully.....
I think opinions are good to express, as it helps me understand the way people think. Opinions aren't all based on facts or knowledge. If you have issue with the previous statement, might I suggest the definition of "opinion" found within the Oxford Dictionary.

People are told by the Catholic church to believe what they preach such as "God thinks it's a sin to commit a homosexual act" therefore their followers should believe that it's a sin, and do everything to prevent and stop it, whether it's voting against a proposed law to make marriage between two people of the same gender legal or their legal right to be able to express their version of love in their area.

The Catholic church is confusing the definitions of "knowledge" and "facts" upon its followers. The Catholic church has been indoctrinating its followers over and over using this method. Why? Because they figured out a loophole - say it long enough, drill it into people heads and it will be perceived as fact and knowledge in someone's mind. Someone who has forgotten that opinions can be proclaimed as fact and knowledge, but actually aren't.

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18-10-2013, 01:26 PM
RE: Catholics vs. TTA......Respectfully.....
(18-10-2013 06:27 AM)Anudist Wrote:  Frankly, I respect your right to have that opinion, but no I don't respect that opinion itself because I have no reason to believe it is correct. If you had compelling evidence to present that would suggest it were reasonable to be against equal treatment, I'd listen. I respect you as a person despite your feelings on the matter.

What the thought experiment shows is that homosexuality is not equivalent to heterosexuality.....not in the same way black race is equivalent to white race. If the two are not equivalent, then there is a logical reason to treat them differently.
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18-10-2013, 01:45 PM
RE: Catholics vs. TTA......Respectfully.....
(18-10-2013 01:26 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  What the thought experiment shows is that homosexuality is not equivalent to heterosexuality.....not in the same way black race is equivalent to white race. If the two are not equivalent, then there is a logical reason to treat them differently.

By "differently," you mean what, exactly? So far, the difference I've seen has been the oppression of rights granted to heteros, and a discrimination campaign led by religious belief.

My greatest joy is knowing that, in hindsight, future generations are going to take a massive poo all over the backwards thinking of the bigots, just they have for pretty much every group that chose to treat a segment of the population as "different."

You'd better buy an umbrella.

If Jesus died for our sins, why is there still sin? If man was created from dust, why is there still dust? If Americans came from Europe, why are there still Europeans?
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18-10-2013, 02:12 PM
RE: Catholics vs. TTA......Respectfully.....
(18-10-2013 01:45 PM)guitar_nut Wrote:  My greatest joy is knowing that, in hindsight, future generations are going to take a massive poo all over the backwards thinking of the bigots, just they have for pretty much every group that chose to treat a segment of the population as "different."

You'd better buy an umbrella.

I don't believe that homosexuality will ever truly be accepted as equivalent to heterosexuality. People on the outside will accept it because they are being indoctrinated to do so and punished if they do not. However in the back of their minds will exist a thought that it is a cold hard fact of nature that the two are not equivalent.

You can indoctrinate people to believe what ever you want, but even so, many will still come to the conclusion that a man's body is built to love a woman....and a woman's body is built to love a man. On the surface they will treat homosexuality as equivalent because society will punish them if they do not, but deep down inside they will view it as a defect.
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