Catholics vs. TTA......Respectfully.....
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19-10-2013, 06:44 AM (This post was last modified: 19-10-2013 06:48 AM by guitar_nut.)
RE: Catholics vs. TTA......Respectfully.....
So I realize, Heywood, that we're starting to thread creep into a political discussion about society. We're not going to agree on much. I summarize the following:

You feel that discrimination based on sex, race, gender, etc. or any other factor is moral and should be allowed to manifest in business and public service, regardless of the root cause of the discrimination, and regardless of the business or public service. You feel discrimination is a right of the individual (I agree) that should carry into their profession (I don't agree). To prevent discrimination is not preferable to allowing it. You do not feel, however, that discrimination in government law is moral.

By your standards, it would be acceptable for:
1. A school to refuse students based on an uncontrollable attribute (race, gender, sexuality, etc);
2. A doctor to refuse patients based on an uncontrollable attribute (race, gender, sexuality, etc);
3. A photographer to refuse clients based on an uncontrollable attribute (race, gender, sexuality, etc);

The fact that the discrimination may be based on an ancient religious text, personal fears, elitism, or lack of education has no bearing on its morality. If you had to choose between a segregated society and a society where public businesses are forced (or enslaved, as you like to put it) to serve only those they prefer, you'd choose the first option.

Finally, you see no "slippery-slope" situation with a segregated society and don't feel that it would eventually work its way into government and legislation.

By default, if you believe the above, then you must believe that it's immoral for the catholic church to push for anti-gay legislation (the whole point of this thread), but not immoral for a catholic teacher to refuse to teach a student based on an arbitrary attribute.

Does this accurately summarize your viewpoint?

If Jesus died for our sins, why is there still sin? If man was created from dust, why is there still dust? If Americans came from Europe, why are there still Europeans?
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19-10-2013, 07:34 PM
RE: Catholics vs. TTA......Respectfully.....
Isn't it interesting how often the more liberal homophobes never consider themselves homophobic?

Or, deep in their own heart's, they know they are, but are unwilling to admit it, or to change.

Yet it's so easy! All one has to do is simply say...
"they're right... I'm a homophobe, but... I'm gonna change my attitude. I'm now not."

Bit like admitting that God doesn't exist. So easy.
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19-10-2013, 07:48 PM
RE: Catholics vs. TTA......Respectfully.....
(19-10-2013 07:34 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Isn't it interesting how often the more liberal homophobes never consider themselves homophobic?

Or, deep in their own heart's, they know they are, but are unwilling to admit it, or to change.

Yet it's so easy! All one has to do is simply say...
"they're right... I'm a homophobe, but... I'm gonna change my attitude. I'm now not."

Bit like admitting that God doesn't exist. So easy.

Yeah. It's a bit like all those people who said, "I've got no problem with blacks, some of them are nice people, I just don't think it's right for their kind and ours to mix, so let's block all those wacky liberals trying to make interracial marriage legal, but I'm not a RACIST or anything." They didn't understand just how bigoted they were, either.

... and if they'd spent even a TENTH of the energy they did on supporting segregation instead fighting the KKK, we wouldn't see them today as such total hypocrites.

... or, you know, if modern "understanding" homophobes focused their energies on the WBCs of the world, rather than focusing them on lower-priority targets...

... but they aren't. Which shows us what their priorities really are.

"If I ignore the alternatives, the only option is God; I ignore them; therefore God." -- The Syllogism of Fail
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19-10-2013, 07:48 PM
RE: Catholics vs. TTA......Respectfully.....
(19-10-2013 03:51 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  I find blaming religion for "homophobia" to be silly. One thing atheists and theists should agree upon is that religion is the creation of an intellect. It isn't responsible for anything anymore than a car is responsible for anything.

Ah yes, the old "guns don't kill people, people kill people" argument. It's a true enough statement, but irrelevant. Allow me to retort.

“With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.” ― Steven Weinberg

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

~ Umberto Eco
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19-10-2013, 08:40 PM (This post was last modified: 19-10-2013 08:52 PM by DeepThought.)
RE: Catholics vs. TTA......Respectfully.....
(18-10-2013 03:30 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(18-10-2013 03:20 AM)Colourcraze Wrote:  But can it be resolved independently of the Bible?

Also, Heywood, that doesn't really address the issue of whether or not homosexuality should or shouldn't be legislated against. Everyone is not suddenly going to become homosexual, so that seems irrelevant. The fact is, there are people who are homosexual and they are not a majority, so should they be able to live their lives in peace like heterosexuals or not? And if not, where is the basis for saying homosexuality is immoral besides the Bible?

So they are lesser humans because of their sexual preference? What are you trying to say?

That line of reasoning leads down a morally bankrupt path. You could substitute homosexuality in your sentence for various other things and come similar sickening conclusions.

The thought experiment shows that A doesn't have the same worth to society as B. If it doesn't have the same worth, there is no obligation for society to treat it as an equal to B.

Is this where biblical morality leads you?

“Forget Jesus, the stars died so you could be born.” - Lawrence M. Krauss
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19-10-2013, 11:10 PM
RE: Catholics vs. TTA......Respectfully.....
"If everyone was gay then DOOOM therefore gays are bad" is so gobsmackingly stupid I'm amazed anyone could say it with a straight face. The premise is utterly nonsensical and the conclusion doesn't even follow. The only vibe it gives me is of a hilariously thinly-veiled post-hoc desperation ploy to throw up some sort of justification for bigotry.

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20-10-2013, 12:31 AM
RE: Catholics vs. TTA......Respectfully.....
(19-10-2013 11:10 PM)cjlr Wrote:  "If everyone was gay then DOOOM therefore gays are bad" is so gobsmackingly stupid I'm amazed anyone could say it with a straight face. The premise is utterly nonsensical and the conclusion doesn't even follow. The only vibe it gives me is of a hilariously thinly-veiled post-hoc desperation ploy to throw up some sort of justification for bigotry.

"If everyone lived in New York City there'd be no one working farms and 7 billion people wouldn't fit there and DOOOOOM therefore living in NYC is bad."

"If everyone was a pastor as their only career then there'd be no police or doctors or garbage haulers then DOOOOOM therefore being a dedicated pastor is bad."

.... yeah, gobsmackingly stupid sounds just about right.
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20-10-2013, 12:48 AM
RE: Catholics vs. TTA......Respectfully.....
Been married to a proper Catholic schoolgirl going on more than 25 years now. She don't dick with my metaphysics and I don't fuck with hers. And all is right with the world. Thumbsup

#sigh
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20-10-2013, 12:51 AM
RE: Catholics vs. TTA......Respectfully.....
(20-10-2013 12:48 AM)GirlyMan Wrote:  ...
a proper Catholic schoolgirl going on more than 25 years now.
...

When does she graduate?

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20-10-2013, 12:55 AM
RE: Catholics vs. TTA......Respectfully.....
(20-10-2013 12:51 AM)DLJ Wrote:  
(20-10-2013 12:48 AM)GirlyMan Wrote:  ...
a proper Catholic schoolgirl going on more than 25 years now.
...

When does she graduate?

Quite a few semesters before you. Tongue

#sigh
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