Catholics vs. TTA......Respectfully.....
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26-02-2015, 12:19 PM
RE: Catholics vs. TTA......Respectfully.....
(26-02-2015 12:14 PM)pablo Wrote:  
(26-02-2015 12:07 PM)PetrovPolak Wrote:  No it's still valid. Sorry.

As for the rest of it, you don't have to tell me that Vatican 2 is a shit council that changed the Church radically, and for the worse. However, you're ignoring the fact that Vatican 2 was largely a pastoral council, and the two dogmatic constitutions within it, only repeated previously held dogma. In other words, unlike pretty much all other Church Councils, this one is not infallible, and is liable to change by proceeding Councils. That's pretty much the key thing here, as Vatican 2 does contradict previous teaching, however, it's largely non-dogmatic, which is expected, as it would be literally impossible to declare the same things in an entirely dogmatic Council. So, in short, Vatican 2 is a shit modernization of the Church, but we can still fix it.

So in other words, the Vatican is evolving to better suit the times?

The modernists that infiltrated the Church are 'trying' to do that. Unfortunately for them (And good for actual Catholics) trying to get any of that stuff declared as dogma is literally impossible, so they can't go any further than this.

No one wanted it to change, Vatican 2 was a robber Council that, for whatever reason (I shouldn't say that because anyone who looks this stuff up knows the reason), was retroactively declared legitimate. It can still be fixed though, or I should say, it WILL be fixed.
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26-02-2015, 12:21 PM
RE: Catholics vs. TTA......Respectfully.....
(26-02-2015 12:18 PM)pablo Wrote:  
(26-02-2015 12:09 PM)PetrovPolak Wrote:  1) I don't deny any evidence, sorry.

2) The Bible has mountains of historical attestation to prove itself.

Then you accept the fact that numerous catholic priests are guilty of molesting, and that the church covered it up?

The bible is fiction, not a good source of evidence.

1) I accept there are convictions of molestation cases of certain priests, yes. I don't accept the conspiracy part because there's no hard evidence for it.

2) "The bible is fiction, not a good source of evidence." Justify this statement.
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26-02-2015, 12:28 PM
RE: Catholics vs. TTA......Respectfully.....
(26-02-2015 12:14 PM)pablo Wrote:  So in other words, the Vatican is evolving to better suit the times?

It's a lot like the increasingly progressive revelations that influential Mormons get...

...about ten years after public opinion has already come to the same conclusion.
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26-02-2015, 12:47 PM
RE: Catholics vs. TTA......Respectfully.....
(25-02-2015 10:52 PM)PetrovPolak Wrote:  Oh, can I try too?

So you're dishonest too. Dodgy

Please provide a link showing where Dawkins said "there is nothing wrong with a little pedophilia" or anything else he worded differently with the same meaning. That's not what he said or meant and you know it (or, if you don't, you're publicly denouncing someone over something that you haven't even vetted for accuracy - which just as bad).

Furthermore, even if he had said that, it wouldn't compare to actually committing acts of pedophilia or hiding those acts for others who are guilty of it - something the Catholic church clergy has done countless times. And, rather than you honestly recognizing the atrocities in that, you'd rather ignore them and point the finger elsewhere. Dodgy

I am not accountable to any God. I am accountable to myself - and not because I think I am God as some theists would try to assert - but because, no matter what actions I take, thoughts I think, or words I utter, I have to be able to live with myself.
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26-02-2015, 12:50 PM
RE: Catholics vs. TTA......Respectfully.....
(26-02-2015 12:18 PM)pablo Wrote:  
(26-02-2015 12:09 PM)PetrovPolak Wrote:  1) I don't deny any evidence, sorry.

2) The Bible has mountains of historical attestation to prove itself.

Then you accept the fact that numerous catholic priests are guilty of molesting, and that the church covered it up?

The bible is fiction, not a good source of evidence.

I'm not defending the Catholic Church here (I am an ex-Catholic who thinks their theology is just as loony as that of any other religion), but as I've said before, the molestation issue is a red herring. It has nothing to do with either the original subject of this thread (the morality/immorality of homosexuality, and whether or not it should be legislated against) or the general validity of the Catholic religion.

If it were found that several US senators were child molesters, that would not invalidate democracy or representative government, and I would not leave the US because of it. If it were found that Einstein was a child molester, this would not mean that the theory of relativity is false. Etc. Personal failings of individual people are irrelevant to the truth/validity of political or philosophical or scientific systems that those people happen to subscribe to or be involved with.

Sorry if this sounds like a rant, but I get weary of people dismissing Catholicism solely on the basis of a handful of priests beng pedophiles. I think you will find this sort of thing in just about any religion (and probably in just about any institution) -- it is not unique to Catholicism. If you want to dismiss Catholicism, you have to deal with the truth claims that it makes, and show them to be false. It has nothing to do with pedophile priests.
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26-02-2015, 12:55 PM
RE: Catholics vs. TTA......Respectfully.....
(26-02-2015 12:47 PM)Impulse Wrote:  
(25-02-2015 10:52 PM)PetrovPolak Wrote:  Oh, can I try too?

So you're dishonest too. Dodgy

Please provide a link showing where Dawkins said "there is nothing wrong with a little pedophilia" or anything else he worded differently with the same meaning. That's not what he said or meant and you know it (or, if you don't, you're publicly denouncing someone over something that you haven't even vetted for accuracy - which just as bad).

Furthermore, even if he had said that, it wouldn't compare to actually committing acts of pedophilia or hiding those acts for others who are guilty of it - something the Catholic church clergy has done countless times. And, rather than you honestly recognizing the atrocities in that, you'd rather ignore them and point the finger elsewhere. Dodgy

https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/richar...pedophilia

Quote:you'd rather ignore them and point the finger elsewhere. Dodgy

I don't ignore anything. I know there are pedophile priests, and I also know that, in certain rare cases, the local diocese even helped cover them up. What I 'don't' accept is the proposition that there is some Vatican-wide conspiracy to actively help pedophiles.
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26-02-2015, 01:28 PM
RE: Catholics vs. TTA......Respectfully.....
(25-02-2015 09:54 PM)PetrovPolak Wrote:  
(25-02-2015 09:47 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  Would you be for or against a catholic theocracy?

Well, that's a pretty broadly used term by secularists now-a-days. What do you mean by theocracy?

I mean a literal theocracy. The nation ran by the church, whatever era church you would like. If there were an actual possibility of that happening would you support it?

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

~ Umberto Eco
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26-02-2015, 01:31 PM (This post was last modified: 26-02-2015 01:48 PM by pablo.)
RE: Catholics vs. TTA......Respectfully.....
(26-02-2015 12:50 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(26-02-2015 12:18 PM)pablo Wrote:  Then you accept the fact that numerous catholic priests are guilty of molesting, and that the church covered it up?

The bible is fiction, not a good source of evidence.

I'm not defending the Catholic Church here (I am an ex-Catholic who thinks their theology is just as loony as that of any other religion), but as I've said before, the molestation issue is a red herring. It has nothing to do with either the original subject of this thread (the morality/immorality of homosexuality, and whether or not it should be legislated against) or the general validity of the Catholic religion.

If it were found that several US senators were child molesters, that would not invalidate democracy or representative government, and I would not leave the US because of it. If it were found that Einstein was a child molester, this would not mean that the theory of relativity is false. Etc. Personal failings of individual people are irrelevant to the truth/validity of political or philosophical or scientific systems that those people happen to subscribe to or be involved with.

Sorry if this sounds like a rant, but I get weary of people dismissing Catholicism solely on the basis of a handful of priests beng pedophiles. I think you will find this sort of thing in just about any religion (and probably in just about any institution) -- it is not unique to Catholicism. If you want to dismiss Catholicism, you have to deal with the truth claims that it makes, and show them to be false. It has nothing to do with pedophile priests.

I don't believe I ever dismissed Catholicism solely based on the pedophile preists.
On the subject on the morality/immorality of homosexuality.
Homosexuality in and of itself is not immoral, however, I consider a male adult (in a position of authority) having sex with a male child immoral.
Now, consider the hypocrisy of the church's stance on homosexuality, when they actively protect pedos.
We can trace this hypocrisy all the way back to the bible, the foundational text of the entire religion.
Pointing out these flaws do not, to me, seem irrelevant.
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26-02-2015, 01:32 PM
RE: Catholics vs. TTA......Respectfully.....
(26-02-2015 12:55 PM)PetrovPolak Wrote:  https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/richar...pedophilia

I don't see it. What specifically did he say in that article that you believes equates to the phrase you attributed to him?

(26-02-2015 12:55 PM)PetrovPolak Wrote:  I don't ignore anything. I know there are pedophile priests, and I also know that, in certain rare cases, the local diocese even helped cover them up. What I 'don't' accept is the proposition that there is some Vatican-wide conspiracy to actively help pedophiles.

Pedophiles are criminals. When has anyone in the Catholic church, including those in the Vatican, ever turned a single priest or clergy member over to the police for this crime? Even if it was some rogue branch doing the covering up, the Vatican should step up and order them turned over to the police, but they haven't done so. Why do you suppose that is? Consider

I am not accountable to any God. I am accountable to myself - and not because I think I am God as some theists would try to assert - but because, no matter what actions I take, thoughts I think, or words I utter, I have to be able to live with myself.
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26-02-2015, 01:56 PM
RE: Catholics vs. TTA......Respectfully.....
Quote:Pedophiles are criminals. When has anyone in the Catholic church, including those in the Vatican, ever turned a single priest or clergy member over to the police for this crime? Even if it was some rogue branch doing the covering up, the Vatican should step up and order them turned over to the police, but they haven't done so. Why do you suppose that is? Consider

Did you ever consider that the reason they don't report them is because they don't know they're doing it?
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