Catholics vs. TTA......Respectfully.....
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26-02-2015, 05:10 PM
RE: Catholics vs. TTA......Respectfully.....
(26-02-2015 04:21 PM)Timber1025 Wrote:  
(26-02-2015 03:08 PM)PetrovPolak Wrote:  The Vatican's authority is based on God. Even if you don't accept the validity of Christianity, you have to admit they at least 'claim' to have a basis of authority. The U.N. and their subsequent Universal Bill of Human Rights has literally no basis of authority other than "We say so.", it doesn't even claim to have any.

Couple of questions:
1.) How can there be this authority of god when the church has changed, ignored, and implemented their own versions of god's law based on secular motives?

2.) Not sure if you said this, but catholics refer to their religion as the "one true religion" quite often. On what basis is this claim made? It is either that members are so proud of the organization (and we all know what the god in the bible thinks of pride:gaspSmile, or it is just the "I like my god better than your god" deal.

Quote:1.) How can there be this authority of god when the church has changed, ignored, and implemented their own versions of god's law based on secular motives?

Dogma can't change. The Church has not changed any declared dogma.

Quote:2.) Not sure if you said this, but catholics refer to their religion as the "one true religion" quite often. On what basis is this claim made? It is either that members are so proud of the organization (and we all know what the god in the bible thinks of pride:gaspSmile, or it is just the "I like my god better than your god" deal.

Is your question about the validity of the Bible, or of the Catholic Church specifically?
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26-02-2015, 05:13 PM
RE: Catholics vs. TTA......Respectfully.....
(26-02-2015 05:07 PM)PetrovPolak Wrote:  
(26-02-2015 04:45 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Are you really claiming to know the mind of God? 'Cause I'm pretty sure that's a sin and shit according to your religion.

Actually, no, that's really what you're supposed to do.

So your entire religion consists of arrogant blasphemers.

“For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways,” declares the Lord. “As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts."

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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26-02-2015, 05:57 PM
RE: Catholics vs. TTA......Respectfully.....
(26-02-2015 11:57 AM)PetrovPolak Wrote:  
Quote:Oh really? I wonder why that is? Dodgy

You do realize that's not an answer? Also, the amount of accusations are also lower than the general populace, despite how the media likes to drum them up.

Quote:So what?

That is an indicator of how long it takes victims to recover sufficiently from the trauma to be able to face going public.

Dodgy Dodgy

You do realize that making an accusation against someone who can't defend themselves, and then, as a result of the lack of trial, declaring them guilty by default IE without an actual conviction, is a thing that only a dishonest, slimy bastard would do, right? That would be like if I accused Christopher Hitchens of eating babies, and since he's dead and can't defend himself in a court of law, automatically declared that he was guilty of it.

You're mixing up your metrics / indicators, there, sunshine.

Dodgy

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26-02-2015, 05:58 PM
RE: Catholics vs. TTA......Respectfully.....
(26-02-2015 05:00 PM)PetrovPolak Wrote:  The same bishop that the article said made the claims, denied the claims they said he made. How is he not credible if he's the one the article said made the damn claims in the first place?

No he didn't. Here's what your article says:

Quote:Archbishop Silvano Tomasi, the Holy See representative to the U.N. in Geneva, decried the report for failing to acknowledge the steps taken by Catholic churches to prevent abuse. And he assailed the panel for demanding the church take liberal stands on moral issues.

His issue was that they didn't also acknowledge steps taken to prevent abuse. He was complaining about an omission, not about what was stated in the UN report. "Decry" is not synonymous with "deny". In addition, the article says nothing about what those "steps" were. If it was shifting clergy to another diocese and saying lots of prayers that they would behave better with the next set of children, it's no wonder it wasn't mentioned.

(26-02-2015 05:00 PM)PetrovPolak Wrote:  I'm sure they've done it before,

"I'm sure"? Opinions aren't facts.

(26-02-2015 05:00 PM)PetrovPolak Wrote:  heck I know someone who's home diocese just did it a couple years ago,

So far, just your claim. Can you show evidence for that here?

(26-02-2015 05:00 PM)PetrovPolak Wrote:  there's not a lot of news stories about them doing it probably because there's not a lot of pedophile priests to begin with.

"Probably"? Why, because that's more comfortable? Any reasonable person would say thousands qualifies as "a lot". Drinking Beverage

(26-02-2015 05:00 PM)PetrovPolak Wrote:  Besides, that wouldn't make good news.

Here's some news for you. The Catholic church only cares about power and money. It's been that way from its beginning.

I am not accountable to any God. I am accountable to myself - and not because I think I am God as some theists would try to assert - but because, no matter what actions I take, thoughts I think, or words I utter, I have to be able to live with myself.
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26-02-2015, 06:59 PM
RE: Catholics vs. TTA......Respectfully.....
(26-02-2015 05:13 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(26-02-2015 05:07 PM)PetrovPolak Wrote:  Actually, no, that's really what you're supposed to do.

So your entire religion consists of arrogant blasphemers.

“For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways,” declares the Lord. “As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts."

No one can fully know the mind of God, but you're supposed to try to get as close as possible.
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26-02-2015, 07:00 PM
RE: Catholics vs. TTA......Respectfully.....
(26-02-2015 05:57 PM)DLJ Wrote:  
(26-02-2015 11:57 AM)PetrovPolak Wrote:  You do realize that's not an answer? Also, the amount of accusations are also lower than the general populace, despite how the media likes to drum them up.


You do realize that making an accusation against someone who can't defend themselves, and then, as a result of the lack of trial, declaring them guilty by default IE without an actual conviction, is a thing that only a dishonest, slimy bastard would do, right? That would be like if I accused Christopher Hitchens of eating babies, and since he's dead and can't defend himself in a court of law, automatically declared that he was guilty of it.

You're mixing up your metrics / indicators, there, sunshine.

Dodgy

How, exactly?
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26-02-2015, 07:03 PM
RE: Catholics vs. TTA......Respectfully.....
(26-02-2015 07:00 PM)PetrovPolak Wrote:  
(26-02-2015 05:57 PM)DLJ Wrote:  You're mixing up your metrics / indicators, there, sunshine.

Dodgy

How, exactly?

You were equating # of accusation with # of convictions / proof of guilt.

I wasn't.

Drinking Beverage

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26-02-2015, 07:12 PM
RE: Catholics vs. TTA......Respectfully.....
(26-02-2015 05:58 PM)Impulse Wrote:  
(26-02-2015 05:00 PM)PetrovPolak Wrote:  The same bishop that the article said made the claims, denied the claims they said he made. How is he not credible if he's the one the article said made the damn claims in the first place?

No he didn't. Here's what your article says:

Quote:Archbishop Silvano Tomasi, the Holy See representative to the U.N. in Geneva, decried the report for failing to acknowledge the steps taken by Catholic churches to prevent abuse. And he assailed the panel for demanding the church take liberal stands on moral issues.

His issue was that they didn't also acknowledge steps taken to prevent abuse. He was complaining about an omission, not about what was stated in the UN report. "Decry" is not synonymous with "deny". In addition, the article says nothing about what those "steps" were. If it was shifting clergy to another diocese and saying lots of prayers that they would behave better with the next set of children, it's no wonder it wasn't mentioned.

(26-02-2015 05:00 PM)PetrovPolak Wrote:  I'm sure they've done it before,

"I'm sure"? Opinions aren't facts.

(26-02-2015 05:00 PM)PetrovPolak Wrote:  heck I know someone who's home diocese just did it a couple years ago,

So far, just your claim. Can you show evidence for that here?

(26-02-2015 05:00 PM)PetrovPolak Wrote:  there's not a lot of news stories about them doing it probably because there's not a lot of pedophile priests to begin with.

"Probably"? Why, because that's more comfortable? Any reasonable person would say thousands qualifies as "a lot". Drinking Beverage

(26-02-2015 05:00 PM)PetrovPolak Wrote:  Besides, that wouldn't make good news.

Here's some news for you. The Catholic church only cares about power and money. It's been that way from its beginning.

Quote:His issue was that they didn't also acknowledge steps taken to prevent abuse. He was complaining about an omission, not about what was stated in the UN report. "Decry" is not synonymous with "deny". In addition, the article says nothing about what those "steps" were. If it was shifting clergy to another diocese and saying lots of prayers that they would behave better with the next set of children, it's no wonder it wasn't mentioned.

Well, alright then, I guess I do see that now.

Quote:So far, just your claim. Can you show evidence for that here?

Unless you have worldwide police records then no, I really can't. Then again, you can't say that they never did either.

Quote:"Probably"? Why, because that's more comfortable? Any reasonable person would say thousands qualifies as "a lot". Drinking Beverage

Thousands? Where and over what time frame, as according to the actual facts, less than 4% of priests, worldwide, have ever been convicted.

Quote:Here's some news for you. The Catholic church only cares about power and money. It's been that way from its beginning.

Nope. Spreading or maintaining the faith always comes first. Money and power lets them do so.
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26-02-2015, 07:13 PM
RE: Catholics vs. TTA......Respectfully.....
(26-02-2015 07:03 PM)DLJ Wrote:  
(26-02-2015 07:00 PM)PetrovPolak Wrote:  How, exactly?

You were equating # of accusation with # of convictions / proof of guilt.

I wasn't.

Drinking Beverage

Yes you were. Those long dead priests weren't convicted either, and yet all those websites still list them as pedophiles. That should constitute some sort of arrest in my book.
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26-02-2015, 07:16 PM
RE: Catholics vs. TTA......Respectfully.....
The fact that someone isn't convicted doesn't mean they are innocent.

Just because someone is accused doesn't mean they are guilty.

See here they are the bruises some were self-inflicted and some showed up along the way. - JF

We're all mad here. The Cheshire Cat
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