Catholics vs. TTA......Respectfully.....
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13-03-2015, 12:51 PM
RE: Catholics vs. TTA......Respectfully.....
(13-03-2015 08:44 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(12-03-2015 07:44 PM)PetrovPolak Wrote:  Well they clearly didn't because, you know, they didn't torture or kill him.

Only because he recanted. They certainly would have tortured and/or killed him had he refused to recant.

I doubt it. Out of all the people the Spanish Inquisition tried, they only executed around 2000 people they convicted within their 200 year run, and they only actually used torture less than 2% of the time. Also, you have your history mixed up, because the facts are that he 'did' recant at first, and he was set free, but then he started teaching heliocentrism as fact afterwards, which is what led to his imprisonment.
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13-03-2015, 12:53 PM
RE: Catholics vs. TTA......Respectfully.....
(13-03-2015 09:50 AM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(13-03-2015 08:44 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  Only because he recanted. They certainly would have tortured and/or killed him had he refused to recant.

As they did to Giordano Bruno for refusing to surrender his reason to spare his life. "Perhaps you pronounce this sentence against me with greater fear than I receive it."

Giordano Bruno was a pagan magician that only believed in heliocentrism because he supposedly received psychic visions from pagan gods that told him it was true. I honestly can't figure out why you people idolize a person like that.
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13-03-2015, 12:57 PM (This post was last modified: 13-03-2015 01:20 PM by Grasshopper.)
RE: Catholics vs. TTA......Respectfully.....
(13-03-2015 12:51 PM)PetrovPolak Wrote:  
(13-03-2015 08:44 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  Only because he recanted. They certainly would have tortured and/or killed him had he refused to recant.

I doubt it. Out of all the people the Spanish Inquisition tried, they only executed around 2000 people they convicted within their 200 year run, and they only actually used torture less than 2% of the time. Also, you have your history mixed up, because the facts are that he 'did' recant at first, and he was set free, but then he started teaching heliocentrism as fact afterwards, which is what led to his imprisonment.

Can we agree that they at least threatened torture? He recanted when he was shown "the instruments of torture". Torture was certainly a part of their repertoire, and the threat of torture is a sort of torture.

Also, there is no such thing as totally objective history. Neither of us "was there" -- we don't know exactly what happened at Galileo's trial, and every historian writing about it has a bias -- it can't be avoided. The historians that you prefer to believe have a strong "Catholic bias".
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13-03-2015, 02:31 PM
RE: Catholics vs. TTA......Respectfully.....
(13-03-2015 12:46 PM)PetrovPolak Wrote:  
(13-03-2015 03:15 AM)morondog Wrote:  And yet... throughout history... people *have* been willing to put their lives on the line for freedom. It's a little intangible sure, but by and large people know what freedom is - it's doing what the fuck you want without some privileged, pampered shithead telling you to. Tempered somewhat by the necessity for all of us to get along.

Edit: and the *reason* those who value freedom have to put their lives on the line for this simple thing is that there's no shortage of twats with force on their side trying to make other people do stuff they don't really want to.

Well, at least you explained what freedom actually is: Selfishness. It's the selfish desire to do whatever you want without thinking about anyone else. It's been romanticized a lot, but that's essentially what it is, as you've just explained here. Life is doing a lot of things that you don't want to do. It doesn't really matter whether you want to do them or not, what matters is if they're right or not. Revolutionaries deny this basic reality, which is why they almost always end up destroying themselves, eventually.

Opposing "twats with force on their side trying to make other people do stuff they don't really want to" does not logically equal "the selfish desire to do whatever you want without thinking about anyone else".

Your thinking skills are those of a child. A petulant child.

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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13-03-2015, 02:41 PM
RE: Catholics vs. TTA......Respectfully.....
(13-03-2015 12:53 PM)PetrovPolak Wrote:  
(13-03-2015 09:50 AM)GirlyMan Wrote:  As they did to Giordano Bruno for refusing to surrender his reason to spare his life. "Perhaps you pronounce this sentence against me with greater fear than I receive it."

Giordano Bruno was a pagan magician that only believed in heliocentrism because he supposedly received psychic visions from pagan gods that told him it was true. I honestly can't figure out why you people idolize a person like that.

Who claimed to idolize him? Consider

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13-03-2015, 02:47 PM
RE: Catholics vs. TTA......Respectfully.....
(13-03-2015 12:51 PM)PetrovPolak Wrote:  
(13-03-2015 08:44 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  Only because he recanted. They certainly would have tortured and/or killed him had he refused to recant.

I doubt it. Out of all the people the Spanish Inquisition tried, they only executed around 2000 people they convicted within their 200 year run, and they only actually used torture less than 2% of the time. Also, you have your history mixed up, because the facts are that he 'did' recant at first, and he was set free, but then he started teaching heliocentrism as fact afterwards, which is what led to his imprisonment.

Galileo was not tried by "the Spanish Inquisition"; he was tried by the Supreme Sacred Congregation of the Roman and Universal Inquisition.
The number of deaths at the hands of the Roman Catholic Inquisition numbers in the tens of thousands.

The last execution of the Inquisition was in Spain in 1826; the Inquisition was instituted in the 12th century, so it had a more than 700-year run.

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13-03-2015, 03:14 PM
RE: Catholics vs. TTA......Respectfully.....
(13-03-2015 12:57 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(13-03-2015 12:51 PM)PetrovPolak Wrote:  I doubt it. Out of all the people the Spanish Inquisition tried, they only executed around 2000 people they convicted within their 200 year run, and they only actually used torture less than 2% of the time. Also, you have your history mixed up, because the facts are that he 'did' recant at first, and he was set free, but then he started teaching heliocentrism as fact afterwards, which is what led to his imprisonment.

Can we agree that they at least threatened torture? He recanted when he was shown "the instruments of torture". Torture was certainly a part of their repertoire, and the threat of torture is a sort of torture.

Also, there is no such thing as totally objective history. Neither of us "was there" -- we don't know exactly what happened at Galileo's trial, and every historian writing about it has a bias -- it can't be avoided. The historians that you prefer to believe have a strong "Catholic bias".

No, even if we weren't there, we can determine, objectively, what happened, just the same as we can do with geology, and the such.
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13-03-2015, 03:15 PM
RE: Catholics vs. TTA......Respectfully.....
(13-03-2015 02:47 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(13-03-2015 12:51 PM)PetrovPolak Wrote:  I doubt it. Out of all the people the Spanish Inquisition tried, they only executed around 2000 people they convicted within their 200 year run, and they only actually used torture less than 2% of the time. Also, you have your history mixed up, because the facts are that he 'did' recant at first, and he was set free, but then he started teaching heliocentrism as fact afterwards, which is what led to his imprisonment.

Galileo was not tried by "the Spanish Inquisition"; he was tried by the Supreme Sacred Congregation of the Roman and Universal Inquisition.
The number of deaths at the hands of the Roman Catholic Inquisition numbers in the tens of thousands.

The last execution of the Inquisition was in Spain in 1826; the Inquisition was instituted in the 12th century, so it had a more than 700-year run.

You're actually combining both, the Medieval Inquisition, and the Spanish Inquisition, into one.
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13-03-2015, 03:16 PM
RE: Catholics vs. TTA......Respectfully.....
(13-03-2015 02:31 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(13-03-2015 12:46 PM)PetrovPolak Wrote:  Well, at least you explained what freedom actually is: Selfishness. It's the selfish desire to do whatever you want without thinking about anyone else. It's been romanticized a lot, but that's essentially what it is, as you've just explained here. Life is doing a lot of things that you don't want to do. It doesn't really matter whether you want to do them or not, what matters is if they're right or not. Revolutionaries deny this basic reality, which is why they almost always end up destroying themselves, eventually.

Opposing "twats with force on their side trying to make other people do stuff they don't really want to" does not logically equal "the selfish desire to do whatever you want without thinking about anyone else".

When you don't even take into account of whether they're right or not, just the fact that the people 'don't want to do it', yes, it completely is.
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13-03-2015, 03:30 PM
RE: Catholics vs. TTA......Respectfully.....
(13-03-2015 03:16 PM)PetrovPolak Wrote:  
(13-03-2015 02:31 PM)Chas Wrote:  Opposing "twats with force on their side trying to make other people do stuff they don't really want to" does not logically equal "the selfish desire to do whatever you want without thinking about anyone else".

When you don't even take into account of whether they're right or not, just the fact that the people 'don't want to do it', yes, it completely is.

No, it's not. Read it again - this time with comprehension.

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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