Catholics vs. TTA......Respectfully.....
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18-10-2013, 10:29 AM
RE: Catholics vs. TTA......Respectfully.....
(18-10-2013 10:21 AM)nmoerbeek Wrote:  Wasted seed refers to seed that is not put in the right place, it is true only one sperm will fertilize the egg, but it will have no chance of fertilizing any egg if it is not in the proper enviroment.

Um...that makes no sense. Because even if the sperm is put in the "right spot", conception can still not have any chance of happening due to the cycle of the month. The egg is only there for 12 hours, my friend. Sex outside of this window cannot - under any circumstances - fertilize an egg.

Do you know ANYTHING about a woman's cycle, or how conception actually happens?
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18-10-2013, 10:30 AM
RE: Catholics vs. TTA......Respectfully.....
(18-10-2013 10:18 AM)nmoerbeek Wrote:  
(18-10-2013 10:10 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Sex in primates, has many uses.

The ancient Hebrews believed that the entire "person" was contained in the male's contribution to the fertilization process. The female was only the receptacle, and medium for growth. Human knowledge has FAR advanced from desert dwellers. There is no reason their ancient norms should apply to modern humans.

What Catholics "believe" is irrelevant in a secular society. They have no right to impose their beliefs on others. There is no "compelling state interest" to make laws concerning a matter that has no negative consequences, for anyone.

Among the questions they never answer is "Why is something offensive to their deity ? " It implies there is a standard to which their deity refers. Where did THAT come from ?

The only reason the Babble has any rule, or law, is that the custom was ALREADY in the culture. There is no law that is unique to human religions. Religion sanctions culture. Culture does not sanction religion.

No one ever built a house by having sex, sex has but one use with two ends procreation and comfort.

We also have power because we still live in a democracy and for the time being we are a large portion of society.

This is not a theocracy. The Founders were well aware of the "tyranny of the majority". The Declaration of Independence says all people have inalienable rights. They are not subject to "votes". You are not granted "powers" under the Constitution to deprive citizens of their inalienable rights. Is YOUR right to have sex and marry subject to a "vote" ?

BTW, this is not a "democracy". It's a democratic republic. There is an important difference which you seem to be utterly unaware of. The Founders were well aware of nut jobs who would attempt to impose their "beliefs" on others. It's the reason the first European Americans left England.

Thanks for admitting one of the purposes of sex is "comfort".
You just destroyed your own case. Thumbsup

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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18-10-2013, 10:34 AM
RE: Catholics vs. TTA......Respectfully.....
(18-10-2013 10:25 AM)Cathym112 Wrote:  
(18-10-2013 10:15 AM)nmoerbeek Wrote:  No I am referring to all sex out of place, adultery, masturbation etc

The Psychological problems I am referring to are those mentioned in articles like this, I said these are secondary to revelation
http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/tgc/...the-brain/

Sexual acts between two married people are only sinful if they lead to the spilling of seed, you will find that in Genesis 38.

I am a very happily married man with 4 children.


So nocternal emissions, which are completely out of your control, are condemning you to hell based on your biblical teachings.

And how about sex with a pregnant woman where further procreation can not result? Did you really stop having sex with your wife for more than 3 years while she was bearing those 4 children?

Further, since pregnancy can only happen in a short window of 72 hours (12 hours after the egg is released from the Ovary), all of those sperm were clearly not seeking an egg....did you only have sex with your wife during her 3 fertile days of each cycle? Of course not. So why is the spilling of seed in this way ok, but not for others. Makes no sense.

No, a person only commits a sin if he wills it, nocturnal emissions are not willed and are therefore not sinful.

Two answer your second two questions I will use a part of scripture
"The wife hath not power of her own body, but the husband: and likewise also the husband hath not power of his own body, but the wife. Defraud ye not one the other, except it be with consent for a time, that ye may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again, that Satan tempt you not for your incontinency."

Married couples are allowed to have sex under most circumstances as long as it wont endanger the life of the other and the other person can consent with full mind.

The secondary ends of comfort is a remedy for the fact that we desire sex more than what is necessary and aids the couple in resisting other sexual temptations.
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18-10-2013, 10:34 AM
RE: Catholics vs. TTA......Respectfully.....
(18-10-2013 10:03 AM)nmoerbeek Wrote:  
(18-10-2013 08:37 AM)Impulse Wrote:  Here is my 2 cents.

http://www.news-medical.net/news/2006/10/23/20718.aspx
http://www.livescience.com/1125-homosexu...loset.html

Check the above links. Homosexual behavior is common in the animal world. It strongly supports the conclusion that homosexuality is biological in origin and not by choice.

Furthermore, for the heterosexuals, could you engage in heterosexual behavior? If you say "yes" out of the technicality, then could you do so without feeling revolted? Obviously, people who regularly engage in homosexual behavior don't feel revolted as heterosexuals would. I think it's just as obvious therefore that they don't choose that behavior - it comes from natural desires.

So my points for Catholics are as follows:

1) You believe your god created all humans. The above 2 points - the animal support for biological origin and the logic regarding choice - strongly suggest that homosexuals are born homosexuals. Therefore, your god created homosexuals. But then he condemns them to hell for their homosexual behavior that is his doing. Dodgy

2) Other than "God says so", exactly what is morally wrong with homosexuality? Please don't cite the health risks as an answer. God doesn't condemn people (according to Christianity anyway) for doing dangerous things or for making unwise choices. So those aren't moral issues. It's arguable anyway whether homosexual behavior is any more risky than heterosexual behavior (VD, etc.) or even other activities (smoking, etc.) that aren't considered sins.

3) Many Catholics are inclined to say "who cares?" to #2 and "'God says so' is enough". Well, really? Why? God creates homosexuals, condemns them for his own doing, and there is absolutely no logical reason for considering homosexuality sinful, but it's ok with you that your god condemns them to burn in hell for eternity for it? WHY?

4) The main argument that I heard when I used to be Catholic is that homosexuality is not natural. It is sinful because our sexuality was designed by God for the sole purpose of reproducing. Use of it any other way is not natural and is therefore sinful because it goes against God's design. Well I think the homosexuality in the animal world argues that it IS natural. In addition, it's not natural to use your body for hang gliding either. Is that also a sin? God didn't have a rest for eyeglasses in mind when he gave us noses so is wearing eyeglasses a sin? Exactly what about adding to God's intended purposes for our bodies makes something a sin?

1) We believe through Revelation God made man perfect and that through the Sin of Adam we fell. Thus all humans are born with an inclination to sin, and having a sexual appetite in excess of what is neccessary for the propogation of the Human race is one aspect of it. God does not make anyone a homosexual.

2) In addition to God said so. We believe all behavior in excess to be sinful, even eating and drinking. Lust is a vice where a person seeks inordinate sexual pleasure for the sake of pleasure.

3) God did not create them that way, Man suffers because of his fallen nature, God is willing to forgive us and help us and died on the cross so we can be forgiven of our Sins, we all feel the inclination to sin so we should love and help one another.

4) I think the problem is the use of the word natural. When we say natural we tend to mean natural law, which is a way a person lives by observing cause and effect. A man knows that if a man and a women have sexual relations they possibly might have a child, and if a man and women love each other and raise that child he will be inclined to virtue. The desires of a homsexual may infact come from his body, but his body like a mans intellect is inclined to sin because of our fallen nature.

I hope I have answered all of your questions.

First, let me again say that I used to be Catholic myself. So I am well aware of the church's positions. Now to your points:

1) How does Adam and Eve eating an apple and thus disobeying God lead to an increased sexual appetite? The ONLY way that could be true is by God's design. God must have designed the universe such that this disobedience would have all the side-effects that Catholics believe it had. How do the side-effects of Adam and Eve's sin get passed to all of humanity? Again, the ONLY way is by God's design. So, in your view, God designed the universe this way and is therefore responsible for countless people potentially suffering an eternity of tortuous burning just because Adam and Eve ate an apple that they were told not to eat. Aside from whether any of this is possible, where is your evidence that it is factual? Finally, your claim that God does not make anyone a homosexual is an unsupported opinion that flies in the face of the prevalent homosexuality in the animal world.

2) Nothing but unsubstantiated beliefs here. Enough said.

3) Please see my reply to #1. So then God created the entire situation from which we must be saved and he also created hell. So then he died for us on the cross to save us from... himself. And how does it make even the tiniest sense that killing himself somehow makes up for and saves us from our sins? Furthermore, he didn't even kill himself because no one dies in your view - they just transition to the next life. Not even in the human sense did he die because he was walking around again 3 days later.

4) I'm not seeing how this is any different from what I was addressing with what I said on this topic. Natural vs. natural law... ok, substitute "natural law" every place I said "natural" and the point is still the same.

I am not accountable to any God. I am accountable to myself - and not because I think I am God as some theists would try to assert - but because, no matter what actions I take, thoughts I think, or words I utter, I have to be able to live with myself.
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18-10-2013, 10:36 AM
RE: Catholics vs. TTA......Respectfully.....
(18-10-2013 10:30 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(18-10-2013 10:18 AM)nmoerbeek Wrote:  No one ever built a house by having sex, sex has but one use with two ends procreation and comfort.

We also have power because we still live in a democracy and for the time being we are a large portion of society.

This is not a theocracy. The Founders were well aware of the "tyranny of the majority". The Declaration of Independence says all people have inalienable rights. They are not subject to "votes". You are not granted "powers" under the Constitution to deprive citizens of their inalienable rights. Is YOUR right to have sex and marry subject to a "vote" ?

BTW, this is not a "democracy". It's a democratic republic. There is an important difference which you seem to be utterly unaware of. The Founders were well aware of nut jobs who would attempt to impose their "beliefs" on others. It's the reason the first European Americans left England.

Thanks for admitting one of the purposes of sex is "comfort".
You just destroyed your own case. Thumbsup

American Laws are not eternal but I am willing to go back to what the founding fathers wanted in regards to marriage if you are.

I said had one purpose with two ends, one of those ends is comfort.
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18-10-2013, 10:39 AM
RE: Catholics vs. TTA......Respectfully.....
(18-10-2013 10:21 AM)nmoerbeek Wrote:  because he loves even the hair on our body

Does he cry when people shave, then? How about haircuts? Tweezing? Are some hairs more precious to him than others? How about nails, he love them, too? Is nail polish a sin, too, since the intended purpose of nails isn't to look pretty?


And what was that about adulterous sex being wrong? First time I'm hearing you can't pregnant when you're committing adultery. Stop the presses, guys, I think we just found the perfect contraceptive! Unless that sex is wrong for a different reason... frankly, there is only so much blind delusion (and I'm being nice here Dodgy ) I can take, so I admit I didn't study the above masterpieces in detail...

"E se non passa la tristezza con altri occhi la guarderò."
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18-10-2013, 10:40 AM
RE: Catholics vs. TTA......Respectfully.....
(18-10-2013 10:21 AM)nmoerbeek Wrote:  Wasted seed refers to seed that is not put in the right place, it is true only one sperm will fertilize the egg, but it will have no chance of fertilizing any egg if it is not in the proper enviroment.

Because he said so, because he loves even the hair on our body and he watches over us each day and night. He wants us to love him, and so when we seek pleasure by itself it distracts us from the love of God. God who created us shared with us his creative power and so he wishes us to use it to create other humans also made in his image which he can love.

Thank you for answering.

If fertilizing an egg is the only true purpose of sex, then sex should be had only during the time this is possible. The egg lives for about a day. Sex during any other time is 'wasted seed.' Having sex more than 12 times a year is wasting seed. Having sex at all, post-menopause (also not explained in the bible) is wasting seed. Wet dreams are wasted seed. The facts do not line up with the 'rules'.

Why does god not specify that we should have sex only one day a month?
Why did god not make it possible for people to detect when that day is (sure, science figured it out, but the bible offers nothing)?
Why did god not make it possible to detect who is, and isn't, infertile, and why does infertility exist in the first place if our purpose is reproduction?

Finally, how can an omniscient being 'want' something? Want implies a need that cannot be fulfilled. An all-powerful being should be able to fulfill any need it has. An all-powerful being should not want anything.

If Jesus died for our sins, why is there still sin? If man was created from dust, why is there still dust? If Americans came from Europe, why are there still Europeans?
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18-10-2013, 10:41 AM (This post was last modified: 18-10-2013 10:45 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Catholics vs. TTA......Respectfully.....
(18-10-2013 10:34 AM)nmoerbeek Wrote:  
(18-10-2013 10:25 AM)Cathym112 Wrote:  So nocternal emissions, which are completely out of your control, are condemning you to hell based on your biblical teachings.

And how about sex with a pregnant woman where further procreation can not result? Did you really stop having sex with your wife for more than 3 years while she was bearing those 4 children?

Further, since pregnancy can only happen in a short window of 72 hours (12 hours after the egg is released from the Ovary), all of those sperm were clearly not seeking an egg....did you only have sex with your wife during her 3 fertile days of each cycle? Of course not. So why is the spilling of seed in this way ok, but not for others. Makes no sense.

No, a person only commits a sin if he wills it, nocturnal emissions are not willed and are therefore not sinful.

Two answer your second two questions I will use a part of scripture
"The wife hath not power of her own body, but the husband: and likewise also the husband hath not power of his own body, but the wife. Defraud ye not one the other, except it be with consent for a time, that ye may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again, that Satan tempt you not for your incontinency."

Married couples are allowed to have sex under most circumstances as long as it wont endanger the life of the other and the other person can consent with full mind.

The secondary ends of comfort is a remedy for the fact that we desire sex more than what is necessary and aids the couple in resisting other sexual temptations.


There actually are THREE requirements for (mortal) sin, in the Catholic cult.
The Catechism of the Roman Catholic Church says : (Paragraph) 1859

"Mortal sin requires a. full knowledge and b. complete consent. c. It presupposes knowledge of the sinful character of the act, of its opposition to God's law.
It also implies a consent sufficiently deliberate to be a personal choice. Feigned ignorance and hardness of heart do not diminish, but rather increase, the voluntary character of a sin."

There is no way homosexual acts by people of good faith, who honestly think they are acting in accordance with their best judgement, who believe in no gods, or recognize any "divine law", meet ANY of those requirements.

Therefore, according to Roman Moral Theology, they CANNOT be sinful.
Why is it, atheists have to teach these people their own theology ?

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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18-10-2013, 10:42 AM
RE: Catholics vs. TTA......Respectfully.....
(18-10-2013 10:18 AM)nmoerbeek Wrote:  No one ever built a house by having sex, sex has but one use with two ends procreation and comfort.

We also have power because we still live in a democracy and for the time being we are a large portion of society.

Actually I think if you check the polls you are a minority opinion and a shrinking demographic. Gay marriage is a fact in what 17 states now and will be law of the land before the decade is out. There is no rational secular argument against it and forbidding it is unconstitutional add that to the growing public support and this is a tide you will not be able to beat back.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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18-10-2013, 10:43 AM
RE: Catholics vs. TTA......Respectfully.....
Catholic doctrines are not eternal either.

For years the Catholic church told poor grieving parents that their child was in Limbo. Then, with a flick of the pen, it was no more.

There are countless other examples (slavery, etc.).
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