Catholics vs. TTA......Respectfully.....
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15-03-2015, 10:20 PM
RE: Catholics vs. TTA......Respectfully.....
(15-03-2015 07:45 PM)Kaepora Gaebora Wrote:  
(15-03-2015 06:28 PM)PetrovPolak Wrote:  Well, nihilism, is, by definition, a worldview in which no obligations exist, whatsoever, so, no, I don't think you could say they're the same.

Nihilism means there is no overarching universal purpose. There isn't any less obligations with nihilism, as people create these obligations.

So, people create their own worldviews based on their own experiences and thoughts. There isn't any need for gods to create it.

Does that make sense?

No, mostly because if God does exist, then it doesn't really matter what your worldview is, as if it's a worldview in which God doesn't exist, then it's factually wrong.
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15-03-2015, 10:25 PM
RE: Catholics vs. TTA......Respectfully.....
(15-03-2015 10:11 PM)Airportkid Wrote:  
(14-03-2015 02:12 PM)PetrovPolak Wrote:  ... I'm not actually against torture in certain situations ...

The police have done well. They've got the suspected terrorist shackled to a chair in the interrogation room. The terrorist's suitcase H-bomb will detonate in an hour. Only the terrorist knows where, and how to disarm it. The police wheel in the first of several "enhanced" interrogation instruments.

But there's a problem. It's you they have shackled to that chair. The real terrorist is still at large. You know that because you're you. The police have you because time is short and they couldn't afford to be too picky about the accuracy of the evidence they've used to pick you up.

Still, you persuade the interrogators to let you speak to the Captain before they start in on you with a blowtorch and a pair of pliers. "Look," you tell the Captain, "you can't afford to waste time on the wrong suspect. You should be putting all your resources into finding the right guy. Untie me so I can help you find that guy".

"I agree with you," says the Captain. "We have to do everything we can to arrest the true terrorist. That's why, in addition to you, we have twelve other suspects in twelve other interrogation rooms we're torturing in order to get the information we need. That's why we still have two hundred officers and soldiers still in the streets, rounding up further suspects, That H-bomb will kill millions if it detonates. If we torture a hundred suspects with high odds that one of the hundred is the right guy, the lives saved will be worth the cost. And I can't release you to help us. It would divert resources to supervise you, to prevent your possible escape, that I can't afford to take away from our two primary efforts: arresting suspects, and torturing them. May your god be merciful with your soul. Good bye".

"Well," you say to the Captain's backside as he walks toward the door, "I can't fault your approach, given the time constraint and your limited manpower. But torturing me won't give you the information you need because I don't have it".

"Maybe," says the Captain without turning around or slowing his pace, "But I hope one of you does". And out the door he goes as the first interrogator snaps his blowtorch into a long blue flame.

************************************

I am quite sure you can imagine a dozen scenarios in which you would condone torture. The problem is that none of your imagined scenarios include you as the one being tortured. And that's just not reasonable, human capacity for irrational application being what it is, human propensity to make mistakes being what it is. Human perception of urgency and cost-benefit trade-offs being what it is.

Unless you really DO condone torture when it's you chained to the rack, for all the reasons stated by the Captain. But nothing in any of your posts suggests that.

Well, of course if 'I' was the terrorist, then I wouldn't want to be tortured, the point of torture is that you don't want to be tortured. Also, your hypothetical scenario equates torturing a convicted felon with valuable information about, say, a bomb that could kill hundreds of people, with torturing random people that just 'might' be said terrorist.
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15-03-2015, 11:25 PM
RE: Catholics vs. TTA......Respectfully.....
(15-03-2015 10:20 PM)PetrovPolak Wrote:  
(15-03-2015 07:45 PM)Kaepora Gaebora Wrote:  Nihilism means there is no overarching universal purpose. There isn't any less obligations with nihilism, as people create these obligations.

So, people create their own worldviews based on their own experiences and thoughts. There isn't any need for gods to create it.

Does that make sense?

No, mostly because if God does exist, then it doesn't really matter what your worldview is, as if it's a worldview in which God doesn't exist, then it's factually wrong.

You're inserting a conditional there and partly begging the question: IF God exists, we are wrong because god exists. You would have to prove it.

I'm giving you a definition of what nihilism is. You can believe in a God for a universal purpose or creating people's obligations however you wish. Though, nihilism is the null hypothesis, that is, it assumes there isn't any higher purpose to our existence. It won't budge because there is a possibility of some supernatural deity existing. It doesn't mean it's wrong because there is a remote possibility of it being wrong.
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16-03-2015, 12:30 AM
RE: Catholics vs. TTA......Respectfully.....
Still waiting for you to state when you'd be happy to condone torture, Petrov? When a man's a heretic? Since historically that's been when your precious inquisition condoned it, and since The Church Is Always Right? Or were they... wrong?

And your response to "The Pope tells you what to do" is "the Pope is not God"... but he still tells you what to do sunshine. You're a boot-licking minion through and through. Pardon me if I don't join you.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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16-03-2015, 12:36 AM
RE: Catholics vs. TTA......Respectfully.....
(15-03-2015 06:14 PM)PetrovPolak Wrote:  
(15-03-2015 12:55 PM)morondog Wrote:  The Pope is the Human and he's got the Rights - to tell the rest of us what to do Dodgy Poor ol' Petrov can't understand why we're not rushing to sign up as minions.

Yeah, you're right, I'd much rather suck the UN and NATO's collective cocks by invading literally everyone that refuses to follow the Human Right's Declaration....except for the superpowers that can actually fight back. They always get a free pass for some, strange reason. Wonder why that is?

Also, the Pope isn't God. He has restrictions on what he can and can't do, or can and can't order other people to do.

... So me not wanting to follow ol' Popey corresponds to me 'sucking NATO and the UN's cocks'? What because they don't acknowledge your derpy fail of a leader? I don't give anyone a free pass, Catholic Genius, *all* such organizations are subject to criticism. You're whining because *you* want a free pass for your ridiculous cult.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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16-03-2015, 03:35 AM
RE: Catholics vs. TTA......Respectfully.....
(16-03-2015 12:30 AM)morondog Wrote:  ...
Pardon me if I don't join you.

You are pardoned, my child.

... after you've said 3 Our Vaters and 4 Heil Hitlers.

Wink

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16-03-2015, 03:49 AM
RE: Catholics vs. TTA......Respectfully.....
(16-03-2015 03:35 AM)DLJ Wrote:  
(16-03-2015 12:30 AM)morondog Wrote:  ...
Pardon me if I don't join you.

You are pardoned, my child.

... after you've said 3 Our Vaters and 4 Heil Hitlers.

Wink

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16-03-2015, 06:20 AM
RE: Catholics vs. TTA......Respectfully.....
(15-03-2015 06:14 PM)PetrovPolak Wrote:  Yeah, you're right, I'd much rather suck the UN and NATO's collective cocks by invading literally everyone that refuses to follow the Human Right's Declaration....except for the superpowers that can actually fight back. They always get a free pass for some, strange reason. Wonder why that is?

Also, the Pope isn't God. He has restrictions on what he can and can't do, or can and can't order other people to do.

Do you actually *know* what's in the UN Human Rights declaration? You sure seem pretty down on the idea. Here's a summary:
[Image: 2013-10-16-humanrightsfinal.jpg]

It's taken from here. A worthwhile site if ever there was one.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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16-03-2015, 06:26 AM
RE: Catholics vs. TTA......Respectfully.....
(15-03-2015 06:16 PM)PetrovPolak Wrote:  
(15-03-2015 07:22 AM)Chas Wrote:  Precisely. It's called Human Rights.

Which is why Human Rights is wrong.....also, how the hell is Human Rights not an act of ordering people to do certain things?

Human rights is a positive declaration, not a limitation.

When there is more than one person, the rights of one cannot impinge the rights of another. That is the source of limitation on rights.

Didn't you say you wanted authority to come from a monarch or pope? No wonder you hate human rights.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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16-03-2015, 06:27 AM
RE: Catholics vs. TTA......Respectfully.....
(15-03-2015 06:19 PM)PetrovPolak Wrote:  
(15-03-2015 07:21 AM)Chas Wrote:  For example?

Pretty much any of them.

That's a lazy-ass response. Just provide one link or one quote.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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