Cell Membranes, origins through natural mechanisms, or design ?
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05-08-2015, 02:04 AM (This post was last modified: 05-08-2015 02:13 AM by Heywood Jahblome.)
RE: Cell Membranes, origins through natural mechanisms, or design ?
(04-08-2015 05:47 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(04-08-2015 04:20 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  One thing about evolution that is a bit perplexing is the occurrence of tool kit genes(for things like wrist) appearing before actual wrists appear. Some say that suggest intention but I haven't bought into that argument yet.

And it's a good thing, as you have provided not a shred of evidence for the ASSertion that you know when the genes for wrist appear, and when wrists appear, Blowme.

Wrists first appear in a fish. Tikaalik Roseae.

This guy....I wonder why this guy needed genes to for wrists and fingers.
[Image: 1024px-Tiktaalik_by_Obsidian_Soul_modified.png]
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05-08-2015, 03:09 AM
RE: Cell Membranes, origins through natural mechanisms, or design ?
(05-08-2015 02:04 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(04-08-2015 05:47 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  And it's a good thing, as you have provided not a shred of evidence for the ASSertion that you know when the genes for wrist appear, and when wrists appear, Blowme.

Wrists first appear in a fish. Tikaalik Roseae.

This guy....I wonder why this guy needed genes to for wrists and fingers.
[Image: 1024px-Tiktaalik_by_Obsidian_Soul_modified.png]

Needs??

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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05-08-2015, 04:13 AM
RE: Cell Membranes, origins through natural mechanisms, or design ?
(04-08-2015 04:20 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(04-08-2015 03:35 AM)morondog Wrote:  We'd have to evolve hands and arms and all that shit just so that Jesus could get nailed to a piece of wood...

Oh wait, but God actually *made* us so he made the arms and stuff. The reason we have arms is because God knew that one day he'd need to nail his son to a cross to die for all the people who in *spite* of his righteous word, still practise butt-sex.

One thing about evolution that is a bit perplexing is the occurrence of tool kit genes(for things like wrist) appearing before actual wrists appear. Some say that suggest intention but I haven't bought into that argument yet.

I've decided I reject this argument. Specifically I reject that since a fish contain genes for wrists that is evidence of there being an intention behind evolution.

I don't reject the notion of intention driving evolution as human intellect at least often imparts its intentions onto evolutionary systems.
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05-08-2015, 04:50 AM (This post was last modified: 05-08-2015 05:26 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Cell Membranes, origins through natural mechanisms, or design ?
(05-08-2015 04:13 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Since 08-01-2015 I have forgiven 26 unprovoked insults directed at me in this forum. In each case, I just turned the other cheek at let it go


Except you haven't "let it all go". You advertise it with a flashing neon sign, Church Lady, you self-righteous whiney bitch. Oh. Make that 27. Yes

Celebrate your victimhood !! Thumbsup

Facepalm

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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05-08-2015, 04:54 AM
RE: Cell Membranes, origins through natural mechanisms, or design ?
(05-08-2015 04:13 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  I've decided I reject this argument. Specifically I reject that since a fish contain genes for wrists that is evidence of there being an intention behind evolution.

I don't reject the notion of intention driving evolution as human intellect at least often imparts its intentions onto evolutionary systems.

Rather than coming here and acting obnoxious toward the membership and wasting our time on your speculation, why not simply take a science course in evolution?

Frankly, as a member of a first world nation with a decent secular education system, I wonder why you even question what has become a science used across all industries around the world???

Evolution is a science. Just like medicine. In fact evolution is now practiced, and has been for some considerable time, within medicine.

Why is America going backwards and causing people like this to be decades behind the world's first world nations?

And where will it lead? With China having the best fighter aircraft on earth and Americans praying to some god nobody attacks them?

Talk about watching Rome fall apart again as America slips into its very own dark ages.

The stupidity and waste of generations boggles the mind???

NOTE: Member, Tomasia uses this site to slander other individuals. He then later proclaims it a joke, but not in public.
I will call him a liar and a dog here and now.
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05-08-2015, 09:46 AM
RE: Cell Membranes, origins through natural mechanisms, or design ?
First off, you got bitch slapped last time when you were shown to be patently wrong about self replicating RNA. I would have thought you would just go and hide your shame.

(03-08-2015 10:46 PM)Godexists Wrote:  So in order to make cell membranes, the Endoplasmic Recticulum is required. But also the Golgi Apparatus, the peroxysome, and the mitochondria. But these only function, if protected and encapsulated in the cell membrane. What came first, the cell membrane, or the endoplasmic recticulum ? This is one of many other catch22 situations in the cell, which indicate that the cell could not emerge in a stepwise gradual manner, as proponents of natural mechanisms want to make us believe.

We are used to (and get bored by) god of the gaps arguments along with the accompanying shifting of the goal posts once a gap is worked out. Yes, membranes of currently living organisms are complex. Are you going to find gaps in our knowledge of how they arose? Yes. Does that prove they were designed by god? No.

You are looking at the end point: membranes after billions of years of evolution. Life most likely arose out of much simpler systems. In fact, lipid bilayer membranes can be remarkably simple and simple to make. For example, you could take Ken Ham, someone with no chemistry/biology laboratory training, give him a diacylglycerol phosphate and as he attempted to dissolve it in water, it would spontaneously self assemble into liposomes. No hand of god required, just the entropy-driven hydrophobic effect. And... if there were proteins or RNA in the water to which Ken Ham added the diacylglycerol phosphate, the self assembled liposomes would encapsulate some of them. This is so well known, I won't bother to reference it. It is a long way from these proto-cells to self sustaining organisms, but given a few billion years the membrane and the contents within the membrane of some of them would co-evolve.

Oh yes, and the membranes within membranes argument... Is there something that says you can't have a liposome within a liposome? No, in fact multivesicular and multilamellar vesicles are known:

International Journal of Pharmaceutics, 37 (1987) 171
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05-08-2015, 01:08 PM
RE: Cell Membranes, origins through natural mechanisms, or design ?
(05-08-2015 04:50 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(05-08-2015 04:13 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Since 08-01-2015 I have forgiven 26 unprovoked insults directed at me in this forum. In each case, I just turned the other cheek at let it go


Except you haven't "let it all go". You advertise it with a flashing neon sign, Church Lady, you self-righteous whiney bitch. Oh. Make that 27. Yes

Celebrate your victimhood !! Thumbsup

Facepalm

Yes it does make it number 27. I forgive you Bucky
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06-08-2015, 09:24 AM
RE: Cell Membranes, origins through natural mechanisms, or design ?
(05-08-2015 04:54 AM)Banjo Wrote:  
(05-08-2015 04:13 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  I've decided I reject this argument. Specifically I reject that since a fish contain genes for wrists that is evidence of there being an intention behind evolution.

I don't reject the notion of intention driving evolution as human intellect at least often imparts its intentions onto evolutionary systems.

Rather than coming here and acting obnoxious toward the membership and wasting our time on your speculation, why not simply take a science course in evolution?

Frankly, as a member of a first world nation with a decent secular education system, I wonder why you even question what has become a science used across all industries around the world???

Evolution is a science. Just like medicine. In fact evolution is now practiced, and has been for some considerable time, within medicine.

Why is America going backwards and causing people like this to be decades behind the world's first world nations?

And where will it lead? With China having the best fighter aircraft on earth and Americans praying to some god nobody attacks them?

Talk about watching Rome fall apart again as America slips into its very own dark ages.

The stupidity and waste of generations boggles the mind???

I cannot agree more. When I hear this kind of pseudoscientific nonsense, be it Creationism or ID/IC, all I can think of is how America's culture helps keep it hampered, exactly as you say. We haven't just turned into our parents (the old British Empire)... we're working furiously on becoming the declining Roman Empire!

You can talk about how bad the U.S. education system is, or whatever, but I blame this issue directly on religion. Nothing else I can see so clearly explains the extreme difficulty of the "average American" in grasping seemingly simple concepts in biology, only in the places where the science conflicts with their precious mythologies.

Seriously, how hard is it to grasp things like "that gene is not a 'wrist gene' but simply a gene that causes a particular set of structures that can be adapted in later generations into what we now call a wrist", and to see that this kind of re-assignment of existing gene groups is one of the main ways changes occur in lineages? (See also: Homeotic, or "Hox", Genes)

How hard can it be to look at the limbs of, say, a horse, and see that it has all our same bones, except it "stands on its toes", which have fused into a hoof (and we have the bones of its ancestors that show how this happens) over generations, adapting what was there to new and better functions?

[Image: 4590304_orig.jpg?1]

How hard can it be to grasp that life is more complex now that it originally was, and that pointing to modern systems as if they had to emerge spontaneously and overnight in modern form is not just ridiculous, it deserves open ridicule?

And most importantly,

How hard can it possibly be to understand that just because we don't know everything, that does not equate to "we don't know anything"!?!?

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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06-08-2015, 09:38 AM
RE: Cell Membranes, origins through natural mechanisms, or design ?
Oh, yes, for interesting stuff on my favorite "wrist/pentadactyl-hand-transition" fossils, check out Pederpes finneyae.

http://www.evolutionpages.com/pederpes%20finneyae.htm

[Image: Pederpes-finneyae.jpg]

[Image: nature00824-f4.2.jpeg]

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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06-08-2015, 11:10 AM
RE: Cell Membranes, origins through natural mechanisms, or design ?
(06-08-2015 09:24 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  I cannot agree more. When I hear this kind of pseudoscientific nonsense, be it Creationism or ID/IC, all I can think of is how America's culture helps keep it hampered, exactly as you say. We haven't just turned into our parents (the old British Empire)... we're working furiously on becoming the declining Roman Empire!

You can talk about how bad the U.S. education system is, or whatever, but I blame this issue directly on religion. Nothing else I can see so clearly explains the extreme difficulty of the "average American" in grasping seemingly simple concepts in biology, only in the places where the science conflicts with their precious mythologies.

Seriously, how hard is it to grasp things like "that gene is not a 'wrist gene' but simply a gene that causes a particular set of structures that can be adapted in later generations into what we now call a wrist", and to see that this kind of re-assignment of existing gene groups is one of the main ways changes occur in lineages? (See also: Homeotic, or "Hox", Genes)

How hard can it be to look at the limbs of, say, a horse, and see that it has all our same bones, except it "stands on its toes", which have fused into a hoof (and we have the bones of its ancestors that show how this happens) over generations, adapting what was there to new and better functions?

[Image: 4590304_orig.jpg?1]

How hard can it be to grasp that life is more complex now that it originally was, and that pointing to modern systems as if they had to emerge spontaneously and overnight in modern form is not just ridiculous, it deserves open ridicule?

And most importantly,

How hard can it possibly be to understand that just because we don't know everything, that does not equate to "we don't know anything"!?!?

What are you calling "pseudoscientific nonsense"? My claim that human intellect imparts its intentions on evolution? You want proof of that, go eat some corn on cob.
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